Calvinism And Predestination

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
O

obedienttogod

Guest
There are several ways to calculate growth rate:

From 10 different sites, I took the average estimations experts are claiming what the population was at the time of Noah. When you average these numbers out, you get 10 billion people.

When Yeshua was on earth to die for our sins, the population was estimated at 300 million people.

From then till now, we are around 8 billion people.

Obviously, these numbers do not include those who have already died. Science estimates that around 110 billion people have been born and lived one minute or more on planet earth.

So, let's use this number from science, 110 billion.


Now, let's do some averaging:

Noah/pre flood = 10 billion / 6 = .000000006%

Yeshua = .000000006% * 300 million = 1.8 million people

Sciences estimations = .000000006% * 110 Billion = 660 million people

These numbers ^ are guesstimations since we do not know actual population numbers. But they still give us an idea of the point I am making.

The Ark is representation of Yeshua during the time of Noah. 6 people were saved out of 10 billion souls. That equals to .000000006% that God saved.

At the time Yeshua died, there was an estimated 300 million people on earth. Using these same percentage numbers, equals to 1.8 million people Yeshua died for, and then they became saved immediately.

Using the number provided from science of how many total humans have lived, we have 110 billion people. Applying the average percentage of .000000006%, equals 660 million total people that are saved and will be in heaven.

This ultimately means, that although we know Yeshua died for every soul to ever live, only less than 1% of every human to live will make it to heaven. That means, 99% of Earth's total population since Creation till now is going to the Lake of fire forever.

Where then, is the argument for the predestination of the .000000006% vs 99%?

And let's also not forget, current believers as of right now, a percentage (%) of those, are going to be deceived like God said in Matthew 24.

But what is surreal, if we take the average from Noah and apply it to all Creation, only 600 million people total from everyone that has ever lived up till now, is estimated to make it to heaven. That is not even doubling the current population of the United States!!

Yeshua died for 110 billion people.
only 600 million people accepted Him as Lord and Savior!!
How sad is that?

I understand there are pie charts for those listed as believers. If we took the Abraham lineages, between the Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Catholics, most charts claim 2.0 billion believers. If we knock that down to those accepting Yeshua, we are around 1.3 billion believers. If we knock that down to those using the original Gospels from the KJV Bible, we are around 475 Million people. And if we knock out those who will be deceived, by using the Noah percentage (%), we are around 460 million people. Knowing that everyone who checks off they are believer, does not actually mean they are saved in God's point of view. Puts us literally around 350 million strong!!

Finally, if we took the time elapsed from Adam until Noah, Noah until Yeshua, Yeshua until now using the current population of the real deal believers. And figured church growth of actual sinners, getting 100% Saved throughout time, we also can figure around a grand total of just over 600 million believers.

Which takes ua back to:

Yeshua died for 110 billion people.
only 600 million people accepted Him as Lord and Savior!!
How sad is that?
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
dear friend. i looked into it carefully and i see that in calvinism they have a few texts they use to prove it, like john 6:44, romans 9 ephesians 1, but there are so many other verses too that say things like compel them to come.

i dont know. i try to always remain friendly but im afraid calvinism could be pushing the boundary because how can you tell anyone Jesus died for them if you dont know it?

all churches believe in universal atonement except this one reformed movement
I prefer the term "general atonement" to universal atonement, because people confuse "universal atonement" with universalism.

I don't agree with Calvinists on issues like double predestination and others, but their writings on sanctification are spot on.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
Are some predestined for hell without a choice? Are our destinies already planned out? Can we change our circumstances, or are they set in stone?

What say you?
What you are describing is "double predestination"...

One can believe in predestination and not in double predestination.

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+...e.0.0j69i57.8215j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Also, if you are implying "equal ultimacy", most calvinists (the vast majority don't, if any do at all) do not hold that position.

https://www.google.com/search?q=equ.....69i57j0l2.4127j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I am a non Calvinist, and I know this...
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,026
1,512
113
What you are describing is "double predestination"...
i believe double predestination is consistent. because if certain are chosen, that means by default that others are not. and because they are in total depravity they cant change their situation. therefore they are born doomed from the womb as calvin said
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
John 3 teaches calvinism. If you read it daily and cannot see that, then you don't know the gospel.

Here is what John 3:16 says -


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


This is the polar opposite of Calvinism.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him is predestined to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16




JPT
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,510
113
Anaheim, Cali.
Do they think we have no choice whether or not we get saved like some kind of mindless clones? Only mindless people would follow such nonsense for long..
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,026
1,512
113
Here is what John 3:16 says -


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


This is the polar opposite of Calvinism.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him is predestined to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16




JPT
this is charicature and misrepresentation of calvinism. they leave john 3:16 just as it is

its simply saying that those who believe are the elect. nothing else there.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Do they think we have no choice whether or not we get saved like some kind of mindless clones? Only mindless people would follow such nonsense for long..
I think I have also stated this at least a half dozen times!! :)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
this is charicature and misrepresentation of calvinism. they leave john 3:16 just as it is

its simply saying that those who believe are the elect. nothing else there.
Calvinism clearly states that people are elected before they believe.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
i believe double predestination is consistent. because if certain are chosen, that means by default that others are not. and because they are in total depravity they cant change their situation. therefore they are born doomed from the womb as calvin said
I understand this. But you don't believe in equal ultimacy, correct?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,637
3,533
113
We are talking about the foreknowledge of God. Best to find a passage pertaining to that subject then to rip this one from it's context and twist it to say something it clearly isnt. Try Romans 8:28-30
Thanks for explaining it...wait did you and could you explain it then?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,510
113
Anaheim, Cali.
I understand this. But you don't believe in equal ultimacy, correct?
What's that mean? 1611 KJV is written at a 12th grade level. The average American reads about 8th grade level now since the reading standards have been lowered. Would you please phrase it so most people can understand it?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,637
3,533
113
We are talking about the foreknowledge of God. Best to find a passage pertaining to that subject then to rip this one from it's context and twist it to say something it clearly isnt. Try Romans 8:28-30
When does God foreknowledge and what does He foreknow according to the Romans passage? You do know that he’s talking to already saved people. Salvation is not in the passage but being conformed to the image of Christ.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
What's that mean? 1611 KJV is written at a 12th grade level. The average American reads about 8th grade level now since the reading standards have been lowered. Would you please phrase it so most people can understand it?
You'd be surprised what you can learn from Google.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
When does God foreknowledge and what does He foreknow according to the Romans passage? You do know that he’s talking to already saved people. Salvation is not in the passage but being conformed to the image of Christ.
That is actually a good point.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,510
113
Anaheim, Cali.
Jesus did not shun Paul because of the thorn in his flesh. Rather he said "My grace is sufficient for thee." Did Calvin think he was better than Paul?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,637
3,533
113
What's that mean? 1611 KJV is written at a 12th grade level. The average American reads about 8th grade level now since the reading standards have been lowered. Would you please phrase it so most people can understand it?
You have misinformation. The KJV has simpler sentence structure, less syllables per word, and less words per sentence to start with. This is how one determines readability.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
Jesus did not shun Paul because of the thorn in his flesh. Rather he said "My grace is sufficient for thee." Did Calvin think he was better than Paul?
Because Paul's heart was right with God. Salvation is first a matter of the heart, then actions gradually follow.
 
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
You'd be surprised what you can learn from Google.
Sorry I was short with you. In simple vernacular, equal ultimacy means that God acts positively and actively in the lives of believers to bring them to salvation and He also acts positively and actively in the lives of unbelievers to bring them to damnation.

This is rejected by Calvinists.