Calvinism And Predestination

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U

UnderGrace

Guest
total depravity is like saying nobody can seek for God. nobody is righteous. true

nobody can call the president, i can never reach him
but if the president sends me an invitation or calls me, i cant even pick up?


it doesnt say that
Agree :)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
total depravity is like saying nobody can seek for God. nobody is righteous. true

nobody can call the president, i can never reach him
but if the president sends me an invitation or calls me, i cant even pick up?


it doesnt say that
A doctrine should not be built from one or two lines apart from the context.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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A doctrine should not be built from one or two lines apart from the context.
You say that when I have shown you doing that exact thing! Also, John 6:44 isn't taken out of context. Jesus is talking to people who don't believe him and he is explaining their unbelief to them. It's right there in the context of the passage!!

Also, the explanation Jesus gives makes perfect sense when read all together. He tells us no one can believe unless the Father draws him AND that same person will he raised by Christ on the last day. The same person is in view throughout the whole text. Believers are those that are drawn by the Father, and Christ WILL raise them up on the last day. He was sent so that He would redeem these believers and it is the desire of God that He lose none of them. That's reading the whole passage in context. You should try it sometime ;)
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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Romans 3 contains a list of verses from the old testament prophets that disagree. Paul makes a case that no man ever seeks after God. To import the idea that it's because we still needed an invitation is to turn the entire text on it's head. The scriptures make clear that unless we are regenerated we will never choose God.
that is what im arguing for. perhaps you misunderstood me.

i dont deny romans 3.

what im saying is, if you read the wedding parable of Jesus, he says go out to highways and hedges and compel people to come in. right? thats invite everyone. you get the invitation, now you have to choose will you come or not. all are invited.

i dont know how calvinist can make it so complicated?

every time there is a choice, they ask 'why does he choose this, other that?' and then its upto God, the regenerate ones respond yes, unregenrate ones respond no. this is not a problem if it wasnt for that God says He wants all to be saved.
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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that is what im arguing for. perhaps you misunderstood me.

i dont deny romans 3.

what im saying is, if you read the wedding parable of Jesus, he says go out to highways and hedges and compel people to come in. right? thats invite everyone. you get the invitation, now you have to choose will you come or not. all are invited.

i dont know how calvinist can make it so complicated?

every time there is a choice, they ask 'why does he choose this, other that?' and then its upto God, the regenerate ones respond yes, unregenrate ones respond no. this is not a problem if it wasnt for that God says He wants all to be saved.
He doesn't say he wants everyone to be saved. Feel free to bring up texts. Calvinists have answered them all in great detail I recommend their works. Dr James White did an excellent job in The Potter's Freedom. Check that book out to see a more thorough answer.
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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He doesn't say he wants everyone to be saved. Feel free to bring up texts. Calvinists have answered them all in great detail I recommend their works. Dr James White did an excellent job in The Potter's Freedom. Check that book out to see a more thorough answer.
it does say that. prayers made for all men, God wants all to be saved.

i have heard the all kinds of men or all classes of men argument by james white, but i think its very weak and you have to stretch it unnaturally to make it say that. like titus 2:11.

calvinists make this in all the spots where it says all men, because it doesnt fit L of tulip, so they have to invent some way out of it. i can imagine free will believers also have some verses they have to invent a way out of, like romans 9. i think free willers explanation are really weak when you just read romans 9 as is, they end up agreeing with the objector. but i also believe the same about calvinists reading of titus 2:11 and 1 timothy 2:3-4, too unnatural reading.

there must is a way to harmonize all scripture?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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"I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word [perfect indicative active]." John 17:6
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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"I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word [perfect indicative active]." John 17:6
this was my argument and what i meaned about it being fulfilled
 

GHClarkII

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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it does say that. prayers made for all men, God wants all to be saved.

i have heard the all kinds of men or all classes of men argument by james white, but i think its very weak and you have to stretch it unnaturally to make it say that. like titus 2:11.

calvinists make this in all the spots where it says all men, because it doesnt fit L of tulip, so they have to invent some way out of it. i can imagine free will believers also have some verses they have to invent a way out of, like romans 9. i think free willers explanation are really weak when you just read romans 9 as is, they end up agreeing with the objector. but i also believe the same about calvinists reading of titus 2:11 and 1 timothy 2:3-4, too unnatural reading.

there must is a way to harmonize all scripture?
It isn't unnatural at all . The context determines how we understand what the author is saying. Paul gives us classes of men right there in the paragraph. If he was saying we should pray for every single human being ever then his sentence no longer makes sense. What point would there be to pray for people who already died? Or for people yet to be born? Or for people who will soon die in far off lands? Paul regularly distinguishes between Jews and non Jew in much the same way John does in his writings. The simplest way to read this is as classes of men. It was a common distinction, it perfectly fits the context,and it harmonizes with Paul's writings on the topic elsewhere. Our individualistic interpretation comes from our own American context, not from the scripture itself.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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It isn't unnatural at all . The context determines how we understand what the author is saying. Paul gives us classes of men right there in the paragraph. If he was saying we should pray for every single human being ever then his sentence no longer makes sense. What point would there be to pray for people who already died? Or for people yet to be born? Or for people who will soon die in far off lands? Paul regularly distinguishes between Jews and non Jew in much the same way John does in his writings. The simplest way to read this is as classes of men. It was a common distinction, it perfectly fits the context,and it harmonizes with Paul's writings on the topic elsewhere. Our individualistic interpretation comes from our own American context, not from the scripture itself.
i appreciate your respectful tone. thank you

im not american btw. but can you shed light on what you mean by it harmonizes with st. paul's writing elsewhere? which writing?
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
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This is a blatant lie FROM YOUR OWN MOUTH!!! You admitted that you have been ignoring the content of posts made by people you don't like. You've been called out for this multiple times AND OWNED IT FOR YOURSELF!!! You make no apology for simply ignoring everyone else. Don't say your looking for truth. You aren't reading what anyone here says.


The actual LIAR would be YOU!!
This post of yours is not remotely close to what I said.
I told YOU, I am not reading anything from YOU, when YOU make a stand upon a COMPLETELY BIASED WEBSITE.
You need to seek help!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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it does say that. prayers made for all men, God wants all to be saved.

i have heard the all kinds of men or all classes of men argument by james white, but i think its very weak and you have to stretch it unnaturally to make it say that. like titus 2:11.

calvinists make this in all the spots where it says all men, because it doesnt fit L of tulip, so they have to invent some way out of it. i can imagine free will believers also have some verses they have to invent a way out of, like romans 9. i think free willers explanation are really weak when you just read romans 9 as is, they end up agreeing with the objector. but i also believe the same about calvinists reading of titus 2:11 and 1 timothy 2:3-4, too unnatural reading.

there must is a way to harmonize all scripture?
AMEN.....

God would have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The grace of God that brings salvation has shined down upon all mankind

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked

Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD

Even though the above are true......we cannot alleviate that God knows the end from the beginning and MANY are called, but FEW chosen <----God is not obligated to call ALL based upon the fact that HE already knows who will and who will not believe.......nor is he obligated to bow to the whims of mere men.....
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
dcontroversal, post: 3910952, member: 183444"

AMEN and Encore!!!

God would have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The grace of God that brings salvation has shined down upon all mankind

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked

Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD

Even though the above are true......we cannot alleviate that God knows the end from the beginning and MANY are called, but FEW chosen <----God is not obligated to call ALL based upon the fact that HE already knows who will and who will not believe.......nor is he obligated to bow to the whims of mere men..
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
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Anaheim, Cali.
dcontroversal, post: 3910952, member: 183444"

AMEN and Encore!!!

God would have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The grace of God that brings salvation has shined down upon all mankind

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked

Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD

Even though the above are true......we cannot alleviate that God knows the end from the beginning and MANY are called, but FEW chosen <----God is not obligated to call ALL based upon the fact that HE already knows who will and who will not believe.......nor is he obligated to bow to the whims of mere men..
God is not obligated to do anything. He is sovereign and can do what he want's.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
God is not obligated to do anything. He is sovereign and can do what he want's.
It was Dcon's post that I was repeating because it is the TRUTH of scripture, so I am not sure why you directed that statement to me???
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
God is not obligated to do anything. He is sovereign and can do what he want's.
Love and obligation are diametrically opposed so I am not sure why you would make this comment?