Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14

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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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And yet you persist in this contention that the presence of the Holy Spirit is found in utterance of tongues at water baptism. You are not consistent and that leads one to doubt your fidelity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
He isn't saying that and you know it Roger.

And it's only unbelief that will keep one from receiving the power that Jesus WANTS to give all.

Who in Acts refused? The religious! Pharisees! That should make one think about their doctrine.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Sure thing. But inconsistent with the message of Paul to the Corinthians.

1 Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Understanding of the message given by the GIFT of tongues, or speaking prophecy which is given by the Spirit too, not from self or ones intellect.

He's not speaking of written sermons but speaking in the Spirit.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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If you say you live in Him then walk as He walked. He was FULL OF THE Godhead bodily yet only said what He heard, and did what He saw. That's operating by the Holy Spirit and His gifts.

Jesus is our pattern in all things!
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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At first, i have to apologize, of course point 4 is yes.
The Word of God is over all man Made Doctrine. And no churchfather ore reformator was 100% right in there teaching.

Second, according your Definition: that speaking in tongues is the Proof that someone is filled ore baptised with the Holy Spirit, I gave only the conclusion for your claim.
And because no churchfather ore reformator taught this, they was according your view not filled ore baptised with the Holy Spirit.

You may accept it ore not. It is History that this teaching startet in 1901 with Topeka. The beginning of the pentecostal movement.

If, i am wrong then Show me where and from whom in the churchhistory this was taught.

If your teaching is correct, then is there an 1800 Years gap. Where no Christian had taught and practiced this what you claimed.

Again it is not my definition that speaking in tongues is proof that someone is filled or baptized with the Holy Spirit. Again you state

"because no churchfather ore reformator taught this, they was according your view not filled ore baptised with the Holy Spirit."

I have never said that you keep injecting that false narrative.
and if you knew Church History the gifts of the Holy Spirit started in the Book of Acts, not in Topeka. due to the fact that you do not hold the teaching of the church father as authoritative, it does not matter if they ever mentioned the teaching of initial evidence.


what we do know is many of the church fathers taught and spoke on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Justin Martyr (approx. AD 100-165)
Irenaeus (approx. AD 120-202)
Novatian (approx. AD 210-280)
Gregory Neocaesarea (AD 213-270)


The Montanists
Reformation Era

Luther and Calvin Later leaders in the Reform tradition added the concept of the Illumination of the Spirit: [/QUOTE]

At first: my point is not about teaching the gifts of speaking in tongues.
My point is the teaching: that speaking in tongues as proof for to be filled ore received the Holy Spirit. Which some in this thread claim. F.e Wanswick in post 589 and Waggles in post 599. There was posts before too.
And I was in discussion with Kelby, when you postet me.
My intention was simple. The thread theme is: some truth about.....
I said simply that this teaching which waggles and wanswick share is not mentioned in the bible as teaching for the believers. And I also cant find that this was taught in the churchhistory till around 1901.
You mentioned some churchfathers.
I found in www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org:
"Justin Martyr listet some gifts but not glossolalia. Chrysostom wrote numerous homilies on books of the NT during the 4th century but does not appear to make mention of glossolalia as notet in 1 corinthians"
You mentioned the montanists as example, which was a cult.
Luther and Calvin did not taught this!
Otherwise you would find this in calvinism and protestant tradition.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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You are looking for an "aha, gotcha moment". With Waggles you can't do it because he speaks what the scriptures say.

Really . What does the sign of tongues founded in Isaiah say? What does it really confirm? Someone has received a strong delusion.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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No the passage to which you loosely refer is all about speaking and praying with understanding.

1 Cor 14: 6 ¶ Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Paul exhorts the believers at Corinth to pray in the Holy Spirit and to pray with understanding. There is no encouragement to pray without understanding.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Verse 11 clearly expresses the message that understanding is essential.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Gods not impressed with someone cunningly reframing his word.
Please cut out the spin.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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John 3:11
"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

..."It is not wise to judge and ridicule something you don't understand"
... "I did not watch the videos you posted".

Do you judge without knowing the contents of the subject?
Do you understand the video since you didn't watch it?
Do you know what ridicule means?
Do you know the definition of blasphemy?
Do you think you will escape eternal damnation?
Do you think you will convince me of a lie?

Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
My point - speaking in tongues is a God given spiritual gift that operates by the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 6:7 has nothing to do with the operation of spiritual tongues it refers to going on and on in regular prayer.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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NO someone has received the Spirit of truth and as Jesus promised can now speak in a new tongue by the Holy Spirit.
Hi thanks for the reply

Ok, so Christians speaks in a "new tongue" called the "gospel" .What of it? The gospel as prophecy is being spread today, people that visit here are hearing the tongue of God as prophecy as well as those that do sharpen iron .His word is alive as our living witness we have heard and believed as His Spirt does witness to our new spirit that we have passed from death to new spirit life.

It is never about flesh and blood or what some call "sign gifts". Do we need to look for a private interpretation with each others use of the gospel, or just sound out the words and have our own understanding?

What does the sign of tongues confirm? Its foundation is found in the Old testament, Isaiah 28, and the law concerning the doctrine is expanded in 1 Corinthians 14.

Who are the people identified when God speaks to them over and over and "yet they still refuse to believe" in a unseen God and so he sends them a strong delusion so they can continue to walk by sight having received there reward of walking by sight . Making sounds without meaning as a way of confirming something?

How can you be sure God is not sending a strong delusion ?

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.Isaiaha 28:

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:20-22 King James

Yet they would not hear being children in their understanding.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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That is your doctrine.
And it is you who are first, condemning Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox servants;
and second, condemning without hope all other people who have dwelled upon the face of the Earth.
Salvation is not just for the Spirit-filled church, otherwise why would there be a throne of judgement before which all
who have ever lived need to stand before?
I wonder what the cessationist would do if they ever pushed the sides of the box down that hampers their God containing powerless doctrine.
We have clearly demonstrated they operate in a dimension of cleverness over simple and plain narrative.
Its like the Hily Spirit saw error in future,and allowed those in acts to get Baptised in the Hily Ghost FIRST,BEFORE SALVATION,solely for the cessationists in our day,to remove ANY NOTION, that water baptism and the new birth is one and the same with the promised infilling of power.
But should they still hope to reframe Gods word ,God added in that the gift was to be revieved by laying on of hands.
Too funny.
How ironic that they bypass the Holy Spirit to teach us how wrong we are about the Holy Spirit using clever modifications of the banner verses that actually indict and destroy their own doctrine.

Hilarious.

Somehow it is fitting that a certain insanity of interpretation follows those that denounce the gifts,along with the power for revelation,without which/whom there can be no understanding. No revelation.
IOW, its like praying "God dont let me know truth,because i reject your power given to know truth. "

Woah.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Roger,
I don't often reply to your postings because (similar to what Dino posted earlier) you generally don't strike me as someone who is wanting to learn. Your quoted post, however, provides the opportunity to explain why on the day of Pentecost there appeared to them CLOVEN tongues, not SPLIT tongues.

Cloven means completely separated, not stemming from the same place.

If someone speaks Italian as their native tongue, that just means they were first exposed to Italian until their understanding began to deduce the rules of speaking Italian. <-- that is a NATURAL process. Once learned, they may use their learning+desire to share a message in Italian.

They may repeat this natural learning/speaking process with as many languages as they can handle, and then may use their learning+desire to convey messages with those languages as well. Again this is the learning of languages (tongues) by the natural means.

However, once the Holy Ghost arrived, people can speak new languages by SPIRITUAL means.

The tongues given on the day of Pentecost did NOT show up because the speaker(s) took the time to learn another language. They spoke "As the SPIRIT" (not their learning + desire) gave them utterance. This speech stemmed directly out of the Spirit.

That's a major difference between Spirit-given tongues and natural tongues.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
If the bible were a puzzle and the maker was God,and God numbered the pieces,there would only be one correct system for assembly.
If the numbers were invisible to humans but visible through special glasses,surely we would want a pair,as assembly would go much more accurately.

Heaven only is the holder and giver of the glasses.
I either need to go there and get me some,or get a pair imparted unto me by someone who has a pair.

We have certain "experts" that have another method.
Their way is superior.
They go to gurus. One of high rank is John Mcarthur. He simply decides by high intellect and his superior wisdom that his shrpie is powerful and it kinda numers the pieces under a parallel power to reveal to his followers where the pieces go.
Then teaches his students to watch you tube vids mocking those stupid four eyed wackos wearing those silly glasses.

Dear God,what a weird mix they carved out for themselves.

Imagine a horse race where winning involved starving the horse and despising muscle development.(power)
The dog won't hunt
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I wonder what the cessationist would do if they ever pushed the sides of the box down that hampers their God containing powerless doctrine.
We have clearly demonstrated they operate in a dimension of cleverness over simple and plain narrative.
Its like the Hily Spirit saw error in future,and allowed those in acts to get Baptised in the Hily Ghost FIRST,BEFORE SALVATION,solely for the cessationists in our day,to remove ANY NOTION, that water baptism and the new birth is one and the same with the promised infilling of power.
But should they still hope to reframe Gods word ,God added in that the gift was to be revieved by laying on of hands.
Too funny.
How ironic that they bypass the Holy Spirit to teach us how wrong we are about the Holy Spirit using clever modifications of the banner verses that actually indict and destroy their own doctrine.

Hilarious.

Somehow it is fitting that a certain insanity of interpretation follows those that denounce the gifts,along with the power for revelation,without which/whom there can be no understanding. No revelation.
IOW, its like praying "God dont let me know truth,because i reject your power given to know truth. "

Woah.
The word cessationist was coined by the same that require a sign before they will believe. No such thing as "sign gifts". .There are signs as metaphor that someone has heard the gospel but they follow . A sign does one of two things .It either leads as that to be sought after ...."Chicago 23 miles . Or it follows …."You have just left the Chicago city limits come again". Like a master it canmot serve both . One way will be upside down, as that in which the faithless Jews were noted for as that needed to make the word of God to no effect. Can't have two sources of one faith. Again no man can serve two masters. No mater which way you turn it to confirm something?.

Prophecy has not ceased. The word of God is alive and is able to divide between what he says and what we think it never returns void.
it will either draw a person closer or distance from the Spirit of truth

God is not bring any new prophecy as the word of God under any manner to include tongues. Today they have electronic devices . that can be used to being the gospel our new tongues to other who have not heard it. Its not the gospel of confusion as if he was served by human hands . And yet as recorded in the law yet for all that they still refuse to believe as a sign against them confirming unbelief..

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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The word cessationist was coined by the same that require a sign before they will believe. No such thing as "sign gifts". .There are signs as metaphor that someone has heard the gospel but they follow . A sign does one of two things .It either leads as that to be sought after ...."Chicago 23 miles . Or it follows …."You have just left the Chicago city limits come again". Like a master it canmot serve both . One way will be upside down, as that in which the faithless Jews were noted for as that needed to make the word of God to no effect. Can't have two sources of one faith. Again no man can serve two masters. No mater which way you turn it to confirm something?.

Prophecy has not ceased. The word of God is alive and is able to divide between what he says and what we think it never returns void.
it will either draw a person closer or distance from the Spirit of truth

God is not bring any new prophecy as the word of God under any manner to include tongues. Today they have electronic devices . that can be used to being the gospel our new tongues to other who have not heard it. Its not the gospel of confusion as if he was served by human hands . And yet as recorded in the law yet for all that they still refuse to believe as a sign against them confirming unbelief..

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Yet you remain hopelessly confused
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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On the second point of... "Is speaking in (unknown) tongues necessary?"... The answer to that is in the fact of what speaking in tongues IS, and what speaking in tongues IS DOING.

That is what this thread is supposed to be about... explaining the different kinds of "tongues" and purposes of each... as well as other gifts. ...(That seems a simple enough idea to me)... But what happens is that the people who hate/fight/discount/disbelieve or simply don't have any of the SPIRIT-given (not naturally learned) kinds of tongues are used to flood the room with non-use, non-existence and non-clarification speech in order to keep others from learning.

Some may not realize it but they are fulfilling the scripture which says "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13)

I consider you to be in the "simply don't have" category ... but pay close attention to your actions and posts. Are they geared towards helping people to use 'unknown' tongues properly? Or how to function in the (agreed) greater capacity of one who prophesies? Are you teaching people HOW to get gifts of the spirit to function (perhaps in a mission context)?

Again, I speak to you openly because I believe you have the potential to be humble and understand.

Please consider the following before teaching:
It is hard (if not impossible) for someone who does not have a thing, to properly teach HOW to use it.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Dear Kelby, thank you for your reply.
When i became a christian in 87, i had also friends in an pentecostal church. And I was open for every kind of denomination, because i see myself as a christian, but not as baptist, menonite ore something else. So i was in the beginning also open for my friends telling i have to need to speak in tongues. Then I prayed and asked God for this. I got then the same impression which i got when i met doctrine from cults. So for me it became clear not to follow this doctrine. During my time as christian i became from pentecostals ore charismatic to hear that i am not a full christiam if i cant speak in tongues.
But nobody could show me where the bible teach it.
The beginning of this teaching lays in Topeka 1901. Before this you cant find this teaching anywhere.
Of course today among pentecostals and charismatics are different teachings about this matter. But this all began in Topeka, USA.

Well, i suppose we will not come to an conclusion. In my eyes this is a false teaching and not the truth. And I dont know which Spirit is behind.
It is also clear for me that you and others are convincet to do the right.

Well, the Lord knows our heart!!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Roger,
I don't often reply to your postings because (similar to what Dino posted earlier) you generally don't strike me as someone who is wanting to learn. Your quoted post, however, provides the opportunity to explain why on the day of Pentecost there appeared to them CLOVEN tongues, not SPLIT tongues.

Cloven means completely separated, not stemming from the same place.

If someone speaks Italian as their native tongue, that just means they were first exposed to Italian until their understanding began to deduce the rules of speaking Italian. <-- that is a NATURAL process. Once learned, they may use their learning+desire to share a message in Italian.

They may repeat this natural learning/speaking process with as many languages as they can handle, and then may use their learning+desire to convey messages with those languages as well. Again this is the learning of languages (tongues) by the natural means.

However, once the Holy Ghost arrived, people can speak new languages by SPIRITUAL means.

The tongues given on the day of Pentecost did NOT show up because the speaker(s) took the time to learn another language. They spoke "As the SPIRIT" (not their learning + desire) gave them utterance. This speech stemmed directly out of the Spirit.

That's a major difference between Spirit-given tongues and natural tongues.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I'm not saying that the disciples learned languages at Pentecost but I am saying that what you guys claim to do in your church is not what happened at Pentecost.

What I see by the words presented here on the forum is Pentecostals desire for power. There is an obsession with power to do stuff. That is not the reason Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Christ came to suffer and to die to redeem sinful mankind. Pentecostals covet power to the degree that they invent gifts that they can have so they feel powerful. Prayer tongues is probably the greatest of these invented gifts that I see here on the forums.

My experience and what I read in the word of God tends to have me believe that those who desire the most to wield power are the least likely to be given power.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Neither that verse nor any proximal to it say that "the Holy Spirit would not operate outside of what God has given in His word" or "The Holy Spirit is always in submission to Gods word."


Relevance?
As usual you are not able to comprehend the truth. The Holy Spirit always speaks and opens the truth of the word of God to believers. The Holy Spirit makes the truth of Gods word plain to unbelievers that they will turn from their sin and come to Christ. The Holy Spirit draws souls to Christ. Unsaved souls that they might be converted and saved souls that they might be strengthened.

John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are Mine; therefore said I that He shall take of mine and shall show it unto you.

Revelation of Gods word is complete.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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As usual you are not able to comprehend the truth.
If and when you become mature in Christ you'll learn that responding in this way does nothing except stoke your self-righteousness.