How mysticism is undermining Bible Christianity today

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#41
But Paul wrote this in AD 61 prior to the completion of the canon of scripture. In other words there was still lots of objective revelation to come from the writers of scripture.
You think that is what Paul meant?

He hoped that the people back in AD 61 would have a revelation of what the rest of scripture would be?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#42
I mostly agree with what you say here.

But what about what the OP defined as mysticism? Can there be such a thing as a non-subjective revelation of Christ?

Doesn't a revelation HAVE to be subjective? You can't have my revelation, right?


I'm not saying that a subjective revelation trumps what is written in the bible. I personally think a subjective revelation helps a person understand what is already written and makes it personal to themselves.
I don't see anything wrong with the OP's definition of mysticism. Was there a certain point that bothered you?
Non-subjective revelation of Christ comes when the Objective God changes our nature through the new birth, other than that only His appointed Apostles and Prophets had objective revelation which equaled with Scripture.
I'm not against subjective revelation (I had a couple) but they are in no way to contradict, add to, or be equaled to Scripture and they are to point us to the Jesus of the Bible.
We can't have each other's subjective revelation unless of course God grants the same vision or whatever.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#43
Since you have a problem with 'doctrine' it is in the Bible in case you haven't noticed...about 53 times. Here is a sample, enjoy...

Deuteronomy 32:2 KJV
[2] My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Matthew 7:28 KJV
[28] And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

Acts 2:42 KJV
[42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Romans 6:17 KJV
[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 16:17 KJV
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Timothy 4:1,6 KJV
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [6] If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 6:3 KJV
[3] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 John 1:10 KJV
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
i have a problem with man placing their teachings above the scripture.

there is no trinity teaching in any of those scriptures btw.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#44
Doctrine is teaching and that is exactly what the bible does.........


All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
so when man invents doctrines such as doctrine of discovery, and they use this to go out and commit mass genocide on native Americans (lots of women, little kids and babies slaughtered) these acts of massive blood shed and brutality are acceptable because they had a doctrine. wow!
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#46
So which particular denominations are you taking aim at?
I beleive. The ones that seek after wonderment, mystical a perpetual state of amazement needing to be refueled .

Jesus referred to them as a evil generation .They have no faith .They wonder, confusing it with faith. Again I believe it is what faith is it teaches us as it does works in us as a imputed righteousness .

Marvel ….as a wonder.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

I would offer. Its not that it is not a wonder as a sign of hearing another tongue, the voice of God. Called the gospel of our salvation. But to remain amazed of a amazing thing is where I think sparks can fly.

I think we all love the grace of God, as the milk of the word, it does teach and remind of continually of his great mercy and grace. But our struggles are eating the meat or doing the will of the father, the food the disciples knew not of . Who were living on the milk of the word were not familiar meat , the milk should decrease but not be forgotten . Like or daily bread the will of our father. The invisible presence of the bosom of our heavenly father, the place of his glory , typified as the bosom of Abraham... "the father of a multitude of nations"

I would offer we never outgrow for desire for milk of the word. it can what I would call can build strong bones of faith . The kind of bones found in the land of milk and honey. The same kind the son of man was strengthened in .The kind by which Samson slew the lion.

In the faith chapter. Beginning with the Greatest as to what our eyes see....Abraham . . . working down to the lesser known. I beleive it is used as a teaching tool to represent the gospel "the last will be first". Not the first Adam but Christ the spiritual seed..

Christ is the Alpha and Omega of our new faith . In regard to the same kind of witness as what the eyes seen the witness of men. God whose name is Jealous would not share the outward appearance with the world . It was not deemed worthy of they who wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. . . to represent in the end of the matter as it is written... In Hebrews 11:38 these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


The promise, their substance, their new un-corruptible bodies.

The bosom of the milk of the word, the one source of our living hope of the presence of him we worship in.

Isaiah 40:11He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Luke 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#47
Mysticism panders to the age old craving of wanting to be like God without submitting to God's authority. God has placed the cross of Jesus between mankind and Himself, so whoever tries entering another way (as the mystics try to do ) is a thief and robber. We must come through the Blood of Jesus to approach God, not by witchcraft, mediums, familiar spirits or even our own intellects, mental telepathy, OBEs ,etc.
wanting to be godlike outside of the Most High???
you confusing Christian mysticism with Satanism lol.

John the baptist and the Essenes were mystics, they devoted themselves 100 percent to serving the Most High. no wives, no kids, no job, no going to town on the weekend, etc etc, every second of every day nothing but complete devotion. yet people teach against this today, amazing!
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#48
ok, would you say that the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are all the one God?
possibly. who knows. but there is no passage in scripture devoted to explaining the trinity. dont make it false but IMO it does make it wrong to toss aside scripture on account of a teaching thats not in scripture.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#49
wanting to be godlike outside of the Most High???
you confusing Christian mysticism with Satanism lol.

John the baptist and the Essenes were mystics, they devoted themselves 100 percent to serving the Most High. no wives, no kids, no job, no going to town on the weekend, etc etc, every second of every day nothing but complete devotion. yet people teach against this today, amazing!
That's asceticism.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#50
so when man invents doctrines such as doctrine of discovery, and they use this to go out and commit mass genocide on native Americans (lots of women, little kids and babies slaughtered) these acts of massive blood shed and brutality are acceptable because they had a doctrine. wow!
Not only is your analogy stupid, it is not even close to what I said or indicated.....try some honesty with the word of GOD and what I said....

dcontroversal said:
Doctrine is teaching and that is exactly what the bible does.........

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#51
Not only is your analogy stupid, it is not even close to what I said or indicated.....try some honesty with the word of GOD and what I said....

dcontroversal said:
Doctrine is teaching and that is exactly what the bible does.........

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
you can think its stupid till the cows come home, but that will never change the idea that it is a fact and really happened.

so was it ok to kill all those native americans? im guessing your gonna refuse to answer this because it proves men have been wrong with doctrines many times. or do i have to go back to the middle ages and start giving some other very bad examples of doctrines.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#52
you can think its stupid till the cows come home, but that will never change the idea that it is a fact and really happened.

so was it ok to kill all those native americans? im guessing your gonna refuse to answer this because it proves men have been wrong with doctrines many times. or do i have to go back to the middle ages and start giving some other very bad examples of doctrines.
I really don't care.....it has nothing to DO with the fact that the BIBLE gives sound biblical DOCTRINE.....get over it and your high horse of going to seed on the word---> doctrine..
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#53
so when man invents doctrines such as doctrine of discovery, and they use this to go out and commit mass genocide on native Americans (lots of women, little kids and babies slaughtered) these acts of massive blood shed and brutality are acceptable because they had a doctrine. wow!
What has that to do with Christian doctrine based in Scripture?
Your example is closer to mysticism where they say "God told us", with no Scriptural foundation.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#54
What has that to do with Christian doctrine based in Scripture?
Your example is closer to mysticism where they say "God told us", with no Scriptural foundation.
One cannot logically argue with that type of bait and switch blather............it is obvious that I was referencing sound biblical DOCTRINE (teaching) and to come back with that and then double down is like a man sitting at a blackjack table with 20 and taking another card......idiotic......
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
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#55
One cannot logically argue with that type of bait and switch blather............it is obvious that I was referencing sound biblical DOCTRINE (teaching) and to come back with that and then double down like a man sitting at a blackjack table with 20 and taking another card......idiotic......
Blackjack was my gambling forté in the world. lol
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#56
Blackjack was my gambling forté in the world. lol
I been to a casino like 3 times in my 52 years......45% chance at blackjack.....have never left with less than what I started with
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
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#57
I been to a casino like 3 times in my 52 years......45% chance at blackjack.....have never left with less than what I started with
I use to live off my winnings for months...but that's another story...a sad one. lol
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#58
I really don't care.....it has nothing to DO with the fact that the BIBLE gives sound biblical DOCTRINE.....get over it and your high horse of going to seed on the word---> doctrine..
it has everything to do with proving doctrine is not always true. scripture is true, doctrine is man, man has been making mistakes from the beginning of time.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#59
What has that to do with Christian doctrine based in Scripture?
Your example is closer to mysticism where they say "God told us", with no Scriptural foundation.
it has to do with at the time, doctrine of discovery was based on scripture and the ones supporting it were saying the exact same thing you guys are saying now, calling it divine scripture, sorry but it is not.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#60
it has to do with at the time, doctrine of discovery was based on scripture and the ones supporting it were saying the exact same thing you guys are saying now, calling it divine scripture, sorry but it is not.
Well jaybird88, we all know that you do not really believe what the Bible says or what the Bible is, and you have your own theology. No surprises there.