Question about Jesus being the Son of God

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Sep 24, 2012
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#1
Jesus being the Son of God means He is the second Person of the Trinity and the Son of God the Father (the first Person of the Trinity), correct? It doesn't mean He is the Son of God in the sense that He is the Son of the three Persons of the Trinity, right? I guess I just get a little mixed up because God is the three Persons of the Trinity.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#2
Hi @LeeLoving, the Lord Jesus is eternally begotten (not created) from the Father, and the Holy Spirit is eternally proceeding from Him and from the Son.

Here's a letter to me from a friend of mine about God the Father as the source (a dangerous term indeed if it is not understood properly in this particular case). There is a lot here, just FYI, so take your time.

His letter also stands in defense of the Filioque*

*(The Filioque of the Nicene Creed is one of the principle reasons that the EOC is in schism to this day with the RCC, from 1054 AD onward actually. The Filioque consists of these three words .. "and the Son" .. I'll post the Nicene directly below this post with the Filioque in bold. The RCC includes the Filioque in their version of the Nicene Creed, the EOC does not, just to be clear.)

So here we go :)

We are entering deep waters here of the mysteries of God, so let's approach the subject with much fear and trembling.

Think of the phrase, "In the unity of the Godhead."

Western theology begins at this point. One God possessing full Godhead.

I think using the word "source" opens up too many distractions based upon modern notions that require much qualifications to prevent misunderstandings. The Father is unbegotten. As such God the Father is the ever-flowing fountain of the divine essence. He communicates this essence to the Son. He with the Son communicates this essence to the Spirit. The communication is eternal. It did not happen one time and then stop.

The first communication is called begetting; the second communication is called procession. Call the communication whatever one pleases, it is the communication itself which is important. So we say the Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from Father and the Son. The begetting is also often termed generation. The procession is also sometimes called spiration.

Berkhof writes:
  • This procession of the Holy Spirit, briefly called spiration, is his personal property. Much of what was said respecting the generation of the Son also applies to the spiration of the Holy Spirit, and need not be repeated. The following points of distinction between the two may be noted, however:
    (1) Generation is the work of the Father only; spiration is the work of both the Father and the Son.
    (2) By generation the Son is enabled to take part in the work of spiration, but the Holy Spirit acquires no such power.
    (3) In logical order generation precedes spiration.

    It should be remembered, however, that all this implies no essential subordination of the Holy Spirit to the Son.

    In spiration as well as in generation there is a communication of the whole of the divine essence, so that the Holy Spirit is on an equality with the Father and the Son

    The doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is based on John 15:26, and on the fact that the Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ and of the Son, Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6, and is sent by Christ into the world. Spiration may be defined as that eternal and necessary act of the first and second persons in the Trinity whereby they, within the divine Being, become the ground of the personal subsistence of the Holy Spirit, and put the third person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation or change.

    When one begins with the unity of God these personal properties are the means by which Godhead is understood to belong to a distinct mode of subsistence within the undivided substance.
Altering the personal properties so as to deny the filioque (fill-ee-oh-qwee) serves to create a new "stream" (using the above analogy of "fountain").

Once the filioque is denied, there is now no longer one stream
--> Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

A second stream has been created
--> Father, Son; Father, Holy Spirit.

There is no longer an unity of three but two unities of two.

Accordingly, the unity of God is maintained in the western theological tradition by what is called the communication of Godheadbegetting and procession. "Person" or "subsistence" depends on personal properties, i.e., properties which are unique to a person in relation to other persons. In the words of our Larger Catechism, there is something "proper" in these relations, that is, "divinely proper." To detract from any property of the Son in relation to the Holy Spirit is to make Him inferior to the Father.

The EO objection in relation to the Holy Spirit is removed by a simple acknowledgement that the unique person of the Holy Spirit also consists in a unique property, and that property is to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity.

If this were not accepted as the Holy Spirit's distinct property He would not be the third person of the Trinity but would be a second second person. This means He would be a second Son. His very name, Spirit, is suggestive of an altogether unique relation in union with Father and Son which nullifies the objection. The Holy Spirit is the person upon whom the communication of Godhead finally terminates. In this capacity the Spirit is Himself the bond of union and communion between Father and Son. Likewise, in the ad extra works (works outside the Godhead) of the Trinity, this unique relation finds expression in His distinctive function in connection with the creation of, providence over, and redemption of, the world He is the Spirit of life and communion. ~AMR (aka Patrick)​

~Deut
.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#3
The Nicene Creed (the Filioque is in bold)
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

~Deut
p.s. - "catholic" simply means "universal" in this case, ~not~ the Roman "Catholic" Church!
 
Jul 21, 2019
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Murica
#4
Jesus is God's son, praise Jesus. Jesus is God's Word and thereby the Creator and also himself the first created thing of God and yet also part of God being God's very own Word (which then would later be breathed into the Virgin Mary by God's Holy Spirit, the Word made into flesh as God's Son still more truly and for the redemption of Man). Whoever praises Jesus, praises his Father if you believe what Jesus himself say of himself and for which reason the jews and the Hellenic beast empire that ruled the world crucified him. Praise God for Jesus, praise Jesus.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#5
Jesus is God's Word and thereby the Creator and also himself the first created thing of God and yet also part of God being God's very own Word (which then would later be breathed into the Virgin Mary by God's Holy Spirit, the Word made into flesh as God's Son still more truly and for the redemption of Man). Whoever praises Jesus, praises his Father if you believe what Jesus himself say of himself and for which reason the jews and the Hellenic beast empire that ruled the world crucified him. Praise God for Jesus, praise Jesus.
Actually, Jesus (God the Son) ~is~ the eternal Word, not the words of the Father somehow made manifest. And just like God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, Jesus (God the Son) is from everlasting (IOW, He is uncreated and w/o a beginning, just like His Father is).

There is not a single Christian Church, be it Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, etc. (even one that exists at the farthest reaches of the pale of Christian orthodoxy), that has ever believed or taught otherwise about Him, because that's what the Bible teaches us about Him. For instance:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

~Deut
 
Jul 21, 2019
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Murica
#6
Actually, Jesus (God the Son) ~is~ the eternal Word, not the words of the Father somehow made manifest. And just like God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, Jesus (God the Son) is from everlasting (IOW, He is uncreated and w/o a beginning, just like His Father is).

There is not a single Christian Church, be it Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, etc. (even one that exists at the farthest reaches of the pale of Christian orthodoxy), that has ever believed or taught otherwise about Him, because that's what the Bible teaches us about Him. For instance:

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

~Deut
Yea yea sure however you wanna say it, Jesus is God's Word, he the word God was speaking at the Creation in Genesis 1 and 2. The Spirit means breath so the Holy Spirit is God's own Breath and it says plainly God's Spirit moved across the face of the void, so the Trinity stuff is true, one God, Christianity is the only true monotheism. God the Father is the God of the Bible, the Father of Jesus the Messiah whom formed him in the flesh of the womb of the Holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit of God.
 

Deuteronomy

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Jun 11, 2018
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#7
That's not what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches us about the Godhead. Rather (along with the Bible), it teaches us that there is One God eternally existing as three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I've gotta go right now, but I'll leave you with something that is both informative AND fun about the Trinity until then :)



~Deut
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#8
...the Creator and also himself the first created thing of God...
No that is not correct. He is the Creator, who is BOTH God and Son of God (called the Word). See John 1:1-3. Not 'the first created thing". The first created thing was cosmic light.
 
Jul 21, 2019
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Murica
#9
No that is not correct. He is the Creator, who is BOTH God and Son of God (called the Word). See John 1:1-3. Not 'the first created thing". The first created thing was cosmic light.
Well yea to the first part he is the Creator, God's own Word that was with God at the before the creation and by whom all creation was made (doubly proved in like literally the very first page of the Bible).

However Jesus is also the firstborn of creation. God spoke his word, that Word is Jesus! This just all more proof really and you make good points too. I would say, Jesus doesn't just fulfill one prophecy, he fulfills them all! Praise Jesus!

Colossians 1:12-19

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
 

Hazelelponi

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Jul 8, 2019
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#10
Well yea to the first part he is the Creator, God's own Word that was with God at the before the creation and by whom all creation was made (doubly proved in like literally the very first page of the Bible).

However Jesus is also the firstborn of creation. God spoke his word, that Word is Jesus! This just all more proof really and you make good points too. I would say, Jesus doesn't just fulfill one prophecy, he fulfills them all! Praise Jesus!

Colossians 1:12-19

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Jesus is firstborn of the ressurection.. The first to die and be resurrected from the dead..

That has nothing to do with the fact Jesus is always eternally existent with the Father and uncreated.

In the book of Revelation Jesus says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (the first and the last) We see in Isaiah, this is also said of God

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."

Jesus is not a created being like we are.. He is part of the Godhead..
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#13
Jesus is God's son, praise Jesus. Jesus is God's Word and thereby the Creator and also himself the first created thing of God and yet also part of God being God's very own Word (which then would later be breathed into the Virgin Mary by God's Holy Spirit, the Word made into flesh as God's Son still more truly and for the redemption of Man). Whoever praises Jesus, praises his Father if you believe what Jesus himself say of himself and for which reason the jews and the Hellenic beast empire that ruled the world crucified him. Praise God for Jesus, praise Jesus.
Not created.
 

Hazelelponi

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2019
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#14
You don't believe Jesus was a human person?
He was God in the flesh, come down from Heaven taking the form of a servant..

Which doesn't stop the fact He was eternally existent with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit - The Triune God..
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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#15
You don't believe Jesus was a human person?
He was both God and sent in the likeness (form) of human flesh. Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Where the law had shortcomings (needed a blood sacrifice) Christ came and put his blood in its stead. :)
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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#16
That's not what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches us about the Godhead. Rather (along with the Bible), it teaches us that there is One God eternally existing as three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I've gotta go right now, but I'll leave you with something that is both informative AND fun about the Trinity until then :)



~Deut
Now that’s what I call, humor at its best!
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#17
You don't believe Jesus was a human person?
God manifested in flesh as a human.
Not created, not temporal, not a secondary God or demigod, but God manifest in the flesh as a human person.
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
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#19
man, but not created
Wondering if you see the irony of this statement? Every man is formed in the womb of a woman. This is where the creation of mankind exists. When has any person existed that has NOT been created? And how do you believe Jesus' human body came into being? If not created in the womb of a woman? A human born of a woman is not a creation of God?
 

WalkingTree

Active member
Jan 13, 2019
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#20
This implies a human creation. It sounds like you're doing away with his humanity. As if one out weighed the other. And considering it's said that he emptied himself from his godhood to become human I just don't see your perspective. What do you think it means to take on "the form" of a servant? You appear to be magnifying his unity with the divine at the cost of his humanity.