The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

You have a corrupt bible version.

Try this:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

BIG difference.

Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 go tegether. Daniel 9:27 is something entirely separate and different.

"...has its final meaning in the coming day of the Lord, which all the prophets announced. It is the same our Lord predicts in Matthew 24:29-30. For Israel the bitter day of mounting, lamentation and woe would come." --Gaebelein [underline and bracketed insert mine]

Amos 8:2 (part of) has the same phrase found in Amos 7:8 "I will not spare [/pass by]…"

You make a couple of excellent points TDW so I'm going to respond to each separately.
Amo 7:8 And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:
Amos 7:8 is talking about the exact same thing as Amos 8 which gives us more insight into exactly what Amos meant in chapter 8 and it also nails down the timing of both chapters.
The plumbline is Christ. The plumbline came, did away with the old covenant and cursed the fig tree so that it would never ever bear fruit again forever.

Amos 8:2 (part of) has the same phrase found in Amos 7:8 "I will not spare [/pass by]…"

As I see it, Amos 8:2 should be read with vv.7-15 also in mind;

and then also (in mind), considering what is being said in:

--Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 (regarding Israel [this is key, along with considering the above-mentioned vv.7-15 (re: Israel's "future"]); and

--Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b (regarding the Gentiles)

[not distinguishing these, leads to all sorts of skewed ideas, as I see it]

...and we DO see Lk21:24b saying (of Israel), "and shall be led away captive into all the nations" [comp.Lk21:23,20,24 with Matt22:7, and then note that v.8 is speaking of "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" which necessarily took place AFTER the 70ad events of v.7! (see Rev1:1/7:3--in "[The] Revelation's" LATER 95ad writings)]



Regarding Amos 8:9, which says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:," one author/commentator says, "The verse, while it has a certain application to that generation [in Amos's day], whose glory should end like the sun going down at noon, has its final meaning in the coming day of the Lord, which all the prophets announced. It is the same our Lord predicts in Matthew 24:29-30. For Israel the bitter day of mounting, lamentation and woe would come." --Gaebelein [underline and bracketed insert mine]

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Who is the only group of people in the bible that are considered to be sons of God? It's not flesh descendants of Israel.

Yes, but note that "the fig tree" is not identified as "Israel" according to the following:

--Lk13:6 - "And He was speaking this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted IN his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it, and not did find any."

--this verse shows a distinction btw the "a fig tree" and the "vineyard"

--Isa5:7 says, "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel..."

--therefore, since the passage says that the "a fig tree" is [or, was] planted IN Israel [/the 'vineyard'], and is not identified as "Israel" itself, then it behooves us to discover just what it is representing INSTEAD (for I do believe it speaks of something distinct from "Israel" itself--Israel itself [as a ppl] is not what will "never bear fruit again," but the other thing, that will not See what I mean? [see again Amos 8:7-15--and keeping in mind what I'd put about Rom9:26/Hos1:10! (re: Isr's "future")])

I left it out because it has nothing to do with the return of Christ.

There is no mention of 3 1/2 years nor is there any mention of Israel being cared for in the wilderness.

By the way, you never answer the question I asked. Do you think the verses I quoted would be considered as Jesus cursing the fig tree - Israel?

You are saying that, because you do not grasp what is being said in Rom9:6.

In that verse, there is the believing Israel within the whole of Israel. [ALL about Israel.] No Gentiles are being referred to here, nor the Church which is His body. Romans 9-11 (chpts) is speaking of "nations" ("Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"--and "the Olive Tree" of chpt 11 is representing "God's governmental ways upon the earth" [not representing, as some suggest, "Israel" nor "Jesus" nor "salvation" etc...])

In your opinion who do you think the disciples thought the fig tree was... from their response, it sounds as if they knew.

Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

Beg pardon! It has everything to do with the return of Christ. At some point Israel is going to say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. I don't how you can say that it has nothing to do with the return of Christ when it is apart of that scripture. It is important to read the entire context.

As far as your claim that God is done with Israel, why would Paul say "all Israel will be saved"? Not only that, but we have a group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who are sealed during the tribulation period. So, unless you change the identity of those 144,000 this group alone would be proof that God has not abandoned His people. I would warn you as well that "whoever blesses you I will bless. But whoever curses you I will curse." By you claiming that God is done with Israel, you demonstrate that you are against them. The church has not replaced Israel. They both have different programs.



"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

Who is the woman?

"Then Joseph had another dream and told it to his brothers. “Look,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

He told his father and brothers, but his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream that you have had? Will your mother and brothers and I actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Jacob's wive(s)

Eleven Stars = Eleven of Joseph's brothers, with Joseph being the twelfth star

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars represents the nation Israel.

What happens to the woman?

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

"But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." (Time=1 year, Times=two years half a time=half a year) Total - 3 1/2 years

1260 days and a time, times and half a time is 3 1/2 years, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. God uses the symbols of the sun, moon and stars of Joseph's dream to identified the woman in Revelation.



I was the one who asked you that! My point for asking is that just because a fig tree is used in a parable it is not always referring to Israel. The fig tree being cursed is an example, which is not referring to Israel. If anything, it was a teaching on the power of faith.

Beg pardon! It has everything to do with the return of Christ. At some point Israel is going to say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. I don't how you can say that it has nothing to do with the return of Christ when it is apart of that scripture. It is important to read the entire context.

As far as your claim that God is done with Israel, why would Paul say "all Israel will be saved"? Not only that, but we have a group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who are sealed during the tribulation period. So, unless you change the identity of those 144,000 this group alone would be proof that God has not abandoned His people. I would warn you as well that "whoever blesses you I will bless. But whoever curses you I will curse." By you claiming that God is done with Israel, you demonstrate that you are against them. The church has not replaced Israel. They both have different programs.



"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

Who is the woman?

"Then Joseph had another dream and told it to his brothers. “Look,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

He told his father and brothers, but his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream that you have had? Will your mother and brothers and I actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Jacob's wive(s)

Eleven Stars = Eleven of Joseph's brothers, with Joseph being the twelfth star

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars represents the nation Israel.

What happens to the woman?

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

"But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." (Time=1 year, Times=two years half a time=half a year) Total - 3 1/2 years

1260 days and a time, times and half a time is 3 1/2 years, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. God uses the symbols of the sun, moon and stars of Joseph's dream to identified the woman in Revelation.



I was the one who asked you that! My point for asking is that just because a fig tree is used in a parable it is not always referring to Israel. The fig tree being cursed is an example, which is not referring to Israel. If anything, it was a teaching on the power of faith.

Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


This can only be referring to "Israel" (the verse in Rom9:25 [in contrast to this v.26!] is about "the Gentiles" [v.26 is about "Israel" and "Israel's FUTURE"])

Your beliefs are so far off from that I really can't debate it with you... sorry.

Let's look at it this way. Is a Christ rejecting Jew today considered to be a son of God?
Is a Christ accepting Jew today considered to be a son of God?
Only believers are considered to be sons of God. Hos 1:10 is talking about Jews who converted to Christ, they are the sons of the living God.

You are not disagreeing with me, but with the word of God. I gave you the scriptures and the answers and still you don't believe.

It's called proper exegesis. You ought to try it.

"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob." Rom.11:26

Do you have a problem with the above?

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
I do grasp it, there are two Israels in that verse. The first mentioned is the Israel of God (anybody who is saved by grace through faith) and the other Israel is flesh descendants of Israel.
Not all of flesh descendants of Israel are part of the TRUE Israel (spiritual descendants).