Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
Most of them were for the priests.
there were some only for the time they were needed, (like anim
some for the Nazirite vows
over 200 of them for the Temple which is not standing.

All irrelevant

There were some just for men, and some only for women.
Probably none of which are relevant outside Israel.
That isn't what the 613 laws man named were? I see I didn't say what I was stating. Sorry it was supposed to be in reply to something, I think. That is what I was asking, not about the revelance, but the truth of what they consisted of.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
Hopefully you mean these commandments.

1. Repent—Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:3
2. Let not your heart be troubled—John 14:27, John 16:33, Matthew 6:25-26, Philippians 4:6-7
3. Follow me—Matthew 4:19
4. Rejoice—Matthew 5:12, (Also 2 Corinthians 6:10, 12:10, James 1:2-4)
5. Let your light shine—Matthew 5:16
6. Honor God’s law—Matthew 5:17-19
7. Be reconciled—Matthew 5:24-25
8. Do not commit adultery—Matthew 5:27-30
9. Keep your word—Matthew 5:33-37
10. Go the second mile—Matthew 5:38-42
11. Love your enemies—Matthew 5:44
12. Be perfect—Matthew 5:48
13. Practice secret disciplines (giving, praying, fasting)—Matthew 6:1-18
14. Lay up treasures in heaven—Matthew 6:19-21
15. Seek first the kingdom of God—Matthew 6:33
16. Judge not—Matthew 7:1-2
17. Do not throw your pearls to pigs—Matthew 7:6
18. Ask, seek, and knock—Matthew 7:7-8
19. Do unto others—Matthew 7:12
20. Choose the narrow way—Matthew 7:13-14
21. Beware of false prophets—Matthew 7:15
22. Pray for those who spread the word—Matthew 9:37-38
23. Be as shrewd as serpents—Matthew 10:16. (Also Romans 16:19)
24. Fear God. Do not fear man— Matthew 10:28 (Also Luke 12:4-5)
25. Listen to God’s voice—Matthew 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:23, Luke 14:35, 1 Kings 19:11-13
26.Take my yoke—Matthew 11:29
27. Honor your parents—Matthew 15:4
28. Beware of false teaching—Matthew 16:6, 11-12
29. Deny yourself—Luke 9:23 (Also Matthew 10:38 and Mark 8:34)
30. Do not despise little ones—Matthew 18:10
31. Go to Christians who offend you—Matthew 8:15 (Also Galatians 6:1)
32. Forgive offenders—Matthew 18:21-22 (Also Proverbs 19:11)
33. Beware of covetousness—Luke 12:15
34. Honor marriage—Matthew 19:6, 19:9
35. Lead by being a servant—Matthew 20:26-28
36. Make the church a house of prayer for all nations—Mark 11:17
37. Pray in faith—Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7
38. Bring in the poor—Luke 14:12-14
39. Render unto Caesar—Matthew 22:19-21
40. Love the Lord—Matthew 22:37-38
41. Love your neighbor—Matthew 22:39
42. Be born again—John 3:7
43. Await my return—Matthew 24:42-44
44. Celebrate the Lord’s supper—Matthew 26:26-
45. Watch and pray—Matthew 26:41
46. Keep my commandments—John 14:15
47. Feed my sheep—John 21:15-16
48. Make and baptize disciples—Matthew 28:19
49. Teach disciples to obey—Matthew 28:20
50. Receive God’s power—Luke 24:49
Awesome, thank you, I didn't even ask!!!! I was just asking if the breakdown of the sixonethree laws I listed was correct, but this is great.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
That isn't what the 613 laws man named were? I see I didn't say what I was stating. Sorry it was supposed to be in reply to something, I think. That is what I was asking, not about the revelance, but the truth of what they consisted of.
Can you not understand that Judaism is not Christianity, the laws were done away with on the cross, and Judaism (an ism) does not concern probably 99.9% of the world population?
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
Awesome, thank you, I didn't even ask!!!! I was just asking if the breakdown of the sixonethree laws I listed was correct, but this is great.
Don't you think they are better?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,641
6,276
113
Most of them were for the priests. There were some just for men, and some only for women, there were some only for the time they were needed, (like anim and some for the Nazirite vows and over 200 of them for the Temple which is not standing.
God didn't number them, man did.


If this is not correct please let me know.
You think the law is dead and doesn't apply to you. I think the law of the kingdom of God is alive and always will be.
well, you can certainly have your opinion , though I would advise you to use facts in something as important as your eternal destiny .

the fact is , no law of any kind will lead you to salvation. get all this law, law , law stuff out of your mind and trust Jesus for salvation.

Law keeping will not save you. command keeping will not save you. Sabbath keeping will not save you. the only thing that will is faith and trust in Christ. that is the only way into the Kingdom.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Most of them were for the priests. There were some just for men, and some only for women, there were some only for the time they were needed, (like anim and some for the Nazirite vows and over 200 of them for the Temple which is not standing.
God didn't number them, man did.


If this is not correct please let me know.
You think the law is dead and doesn't apply to you. I think the law of the kingdom of God is alive and always will be.
Thr law of the kingdom is alive

Its just not the law of moses.

Jesus fulfilled that law. And then gave us a much better law
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,001
13,008
113
58
Never came to saving faith? Let's take a look at the context of the passages in question.Never said any different. I like this translation For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins, (Heb 10:26 LITV)
Yes, never came to saving faith. I like how the Amplified reads - For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward]. The present tense indicates this is their lifestyle, their habitual practice. It describes an abiding state of willful, deliberate sinning. Those who are born of God are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, but sinning is not their willful, habitual, continual practice once they are born again. *1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin.. Believers become new creations in Christ "the old things have passed away behold and new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

In verse 26 the writer includes himself in the start of this admonition by his use through the Holy Spirit of the pronoun "we". A better translation however might be "of us" since it is the genitive case. So Regardless what you or I think the writer definitely thought he and those to whom he was writing to in Hebrews could lose their salvation if they was willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Although the writer includes himself in this warning (if we sin willfully) note that he switches pronouns in Hebrews 10:29 to "he" and at the end of the chapter (Hebrews 10:39) the writer makes it clear that he considers himself a true believer by including himself in the "we" who do not "draw back to perdition." But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. So regardless of what you think, NOWHERE does the Bible us the words, "lose salvation." For further study see - https://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_1026-27

The text says in verse 29 in the KJV "he was sanctified". Sanctified is in the aorist tense 3 person singular. Which means "he was sanctified" is correct. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite (insult) unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb 10:26-31 KJV)
Sanctified in Hebrews 10:29 is not the same as sanctified in Hebrews 10:14. The one proves eternal (Hebrews 10:14) and the other proves guilty of apostasy (Hebrews 10:29). So once again, the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So even though the reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a genuine Christian, this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but then renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. For further study see - https://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_1028-29

Not according to 10:38
(Heb 10:38 NET) But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him.

Shrinks back (draws back) is in the third person singular. Which dictates that the "he" mentioned in relation to the shrinking back is the "the righteous one" (just) mentioned in the previous clause. Incidentally how does one shrink back from being something unless they are the something to begin with.
I find it interesting that the KJV reads - ..but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. The NKJV reads - ..if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.” The NIV reads - And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back. Even if the "he" mentioned in relation to the shrinking back is the "righteous one" regardless, the first clause is clarified by the second clause in verse 39 - But "we" are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. :)
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
113
The Laws of God exist to convict the sinner!
The Laws of God exist to delight the righteous!

The Laws of God exist to illuminate the misdeeds of the wicked; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. THERE ARE LAWS AGAINST THESE Gal 5:19-21.

The Laws of God exist to illuminate the deeds of the righteous; love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: THERE ARE NO LAWS AGAINST THESE-JUST FOR THEM! Gal 5:22-23

So In verse;

Gal 5:18 KJV But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

It speaks to the main point of being “led by the Spirit”! This one thing is synonomous with “the laws written upon our hearts”

Remember the warning:

2Pe 3:15-17 NIV Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. (16) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Paul’s meaning is that the Law is always there to bless or curse! If you are led by the Spirit you are not under/cursed by the Law! If you are carnal/wicked you are under/cursed by the Law! This is the point throughout Paul’s epistles, but ignorant and unstable people distort this to read "the Law is gone! Even if you sin, it’s GONE!" This they do to their own destruction!

(Jer 31:33 KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Heb 8:10 KJV) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Eze 36:26 KJV) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
(Psa 51:10 KJV) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
(Pro 4:23 KJV) Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
(Psa 37:31 KJV) The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
(Mat 22:37 KJV) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(Psa 119:11 KJV) Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The Laws of God exist to convict the sinner!
The Laws of God exist to delight the righteous!

The Laws of God exist to illuminate the misdeeds of the wicked; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. THERE ARE LAWS AGAINST THESE Gal 5:19-21.

The Laws of God exist to illuminate the deeds of the righteous; love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: THERE ARE NO LAWS AGAINST THESE-JUST FOR THEM! Gal 5:22-23

So In verse;

Gal 5:18 KJV But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

It speaks to the main point of being “led by the Spirit”! This one thing is synonomous with “the laws written upon our hearts”

Remember the warning:

2Pe 3:15-17 NIV Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. (16) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Paul’s meaning is that the Law is always there to bless or curse! If you are led by the Spirit you are not under/cursed by the Law! If you are carnal/wicked you are under/cursed by the Law! This is the point throughout Paul’s epistles, but ignorant and unstable people distort this to read "the Law is gone! Even if you sin, it’s GONE!" This they do to their own destruction!

(Jer 31:33 KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Heb 8:10 KJV) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Eze 36:26 KJV) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
(Psa 51:10 KJV) Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
(Pro 4:23 KJV) Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
(Psa 37:31 KJV) The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
(Mat 22:37 KJV) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(Psa 119:11 KJV) Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
The law of god is here to convict the sinner of their need for christ.

It can not delight the righteous. Because accoding to the law. NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS! NO NOT ONE!

I so pray you would see this
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
...especially because this passage says, "...which ARE [present indicative; plural] A SHADOW [singular] of the things COMING [plural (certain to come, because PROPHESIED to do so)]"

...but they are not for US to "observe" (meaning, "us/'the Church which is His body'")
Right..I'm not sure exactly how you are viewing this though...they were a shadow of things to come at the time they were instituted, and were fulfilled in Christ. The substance (fulfillment) is Christ.

By the way, I do not hold the view that some of the festivals remain unfulfilled as some Hebrew Roots Movement and others teach. I believe they have all been fulfilled in Christ already.

Heb 10:1-4 is actually instructive, too...it refers to the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law as shadows of things to come, as well. The inference is that Sabbath, festivals, new moons are ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law..something most HRM types will deny.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,702
684
113
[...]
When Paul says "under the law" he doesn't mean what we modern readers understand that to mean when reading the English. We're divorced (to use your word) from the culture about some 2000 years. [...]
exactly what law is that?
what does scripture say?


To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
(1 Corinthians 9:20-21)
exactly what law is this?

“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Corinthians 15:55-57)
does God write the power of sin in the hearts of those He redeems?
Unfortunately what you're implying - The Law = Sin - Paul hoped his readers of Romans would absolutely avoid thinking...

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The phrase "The power of sin" does not connect or define the law as "sin"...or imply that the law is sin's supporter, even in the slightest.

The phrase means "the sin in us, once it knows a commandment, is immediately empowered and strengthened to disobey it".

Why?

Because we have rebellious hearts. And had the person never heard the commandment they wouldn't be motivated to break it.

...and as Paul says, this PROVES the law is good and that we are carnal/sinful.

Take a child (or even an adult) and give them a rule to follow or a boundary to stay within that they never had before (i.e. "don't do this or that") and they'll instantly be triggered in heart to do that exact thing, many times right in front of you in defiance, just because you told them what not to do.

It's possible they never even dreamed of doing the opposite, but because you told them what NOT to do they are compelled to rebel.

The power or strength of their rebellion is your rule/boundary.

So is your rule or boundary wrong or bad? No, but their rebellious nature is strengthened by your rule because the heart is evil and has not been circumcised.

Again, as Paul emphatically says, "the law is good." So to suggest or infer otherwise is unscriptural.

This is why the very law that the heart rebels against must be etched on that heart, otherwise there will continue to be death. Why? Because sin (i.e. rebellion specifically against the law of Yah) brings death.

The wages of sin is death.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
Unfortunately what you're implying - The Law = Sin
Only if Paul is.

The law is the power of sin.

That's scripture, and that's all i said.

Do you not agree that the law is the power of sin?

Does sin have any more power over you?

What are the implications of your answer?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,702
684
113
If your asking,, How can you say you know the law?

A symbol of mankind's issue, and Gods response to mankind's issue
It's called context. As before, I can assume I know what you're talking about or I can ask you what you mean, and then say whether you're correct or incorrect or agree or disagree.

The Old Covenant was not a symbol of mankind's issue. That is incorrect. It was a marriage between Israel and Yah.

And everything they went through was an EXAMPLE.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
Can you not understand that Judaism is not Christianity, the laws were done away with on the cross, and Judaism (an ism) does not concern probably 99.9% of the world population?
Maybe if I start to say it in other languages as it is not getting through in English. In which post of mine did you read that? You wouldn't make that statement if you hadn't would you? As a Christian I am not to ask about the OT? Anything else I am not to question in your opinion? Really, was there a need to be rude?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,094
113
The phrase "The power of sin" does not connect or define the law as "sin"
If this is so why do you accuse me of calling the law sin when all i did was quote the scripture that says 'the law is the power of sin'?

Did God write the power of sin in your heart? Is that a hard question?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,702
684
113
Only if Paul is.

The law is the power of sin.

That's scripture, and that's all i said.

Do you not agree that the law is the power of sin?
Ask this question again in your own words to share what you think it means, then I'll answer in agreement or disagreement.