Hades / The Grave

Which place did his soul go in your opinion?

I love espresso but mostly drink black coffee, occasionally I will use Coffee Mate, rarely sugar except perhaps if I need an energy boost.

That was the name of a DRA (Dual Recovery Anonymous) meeting I used to attend. Dual recovery aka dual diagnosis aka co-occurring disorders like addiction with other mental/emotional and/or physical disorders. We did not discriminate against others that were taking required prescribed medications. As for me, besides blood pressure meds. I have been med free for about 11 years. PTL!

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● Luke 16:27-31 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for
I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to
this place of torment.

My guess is that the rich man was concerned because he knew all too well
that his brothers didn't believe in a hell. I suspect that they felt, as many do,
that when their brother breathed his last, he ceased to exist. In other words;
the rich man hoped that his brothers would be interested to find out that he
was still conscious somewhere beyond the grave.

● Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them"

According to Abraham, the Old Testament reveals the existence of a hell;
not only the Prophets, but also Moses; viz: the Pentateuch.

I've thus far had no luck locating a hell in the Pentateuch, but the Prophets
have at least one mention that really stands out.

● Isa 66:23-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me; says The Lord.

. . . And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who
rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched,
and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

But of one thing about his brothers that the rich man was convinced: they
were not Bible believers. So he protested:

● Luke 16:30 . . No, father Abraham

In other words: the rich man was all too aware that the Old Testament's
revelations about hell would've just bounced off his brothers like a Red
Ryder BB gun off the armor plating of a Russian tank. The really creative
ones might've even written off the OT's teachings as parables that have no
basis in reality.

● Luke 16:30-31 . . He said; "If someone from the dead goes to them, they
will repent. Abraham said to him; "If they do not listen to Moses and the
Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

That's still true. Things like after-death experiences, and near-death
experiences, typically have very little influence on secular thinking.
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This is so true. Also, the other "Lazarus" who was raised from the dead was walking about plain for all to see - even to some of those who shouted "crucify him, crucify him". So even one risen from the dead (and even Jesus) did not make them believe. Indeed. I suspect that the name given in Lazarus and the rich man is relevant to point to the other "Lazarus" as well, so people could know there was no mistake and remind them that they had already ignored one "being risen from the dead".

There is no division between the word of God and the witness

There is no division between Moses who represents the law of God.. . the word of God, and the prophets the witness to the law. Together with the prophets they both as one represent the law book . All things written in the law and prophets. (sola scriptura) The reforming authority as it is written.

The two witnesses. The law and the testimony of the Son of man Jesus. Used to represent the father not seen and the Son seen working as one. The manner like in the reference in these last days. He has spoken directly through the Son Jesus a prophet of God .

All prophets come in the unseen power of God Like John the Baptist coming in the power of Elijah coming in the power from the Holy Spirit that dwelt in him

Hebrews 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
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● Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them"

The first five books of the Bible, a.k.a. the Pentateuch, are attributed to
Moses. I can't find anything in them where Moses clearly wrote about hell;
but I have found several places in the Pentateuch where Moses wrote of a
location called sheol (sheh-ole').

Sheol first appears in Gen 37:35, and thereafter six more places in Moses'
writings. Apparently the rich man and his five brothers either overlooked
sheol, never bothered to research it, or just simply discarded it as fantasy.

Sheol is commonly interpreted as the grave. Well; the specific Hebrew word
for grave in the Pentateuch is qeber (keh'-ber) a.k.a. qibrah (kib-raw');
which first appears in Gen 23:4 and thereafter eleven more places in Moses'
writings.

The Greek equivalent of sheol is haides (hah'-dace) which first appears in
Matt 11:23 and thereafter ten more places in the New Testament.

Haides is commonly interpreted as the grave. Well; the specific Greek word
for grave in the New Testament is mnemeion (mnay-mi'-on) which first
appears at Matt 8:28, and thereafter forty-one more places in the New
Testament.

The rich man was no doubt familiar with qeber/mnemeion from attending a
number of funerals; fully expecting the day when he himself would be laid to
rest. But the rich man didn't anticipate sheol/haides; that he did not
expect. Consequently the afterlife caught him completely by surprise like an
unsuspecting bear stepping on the trigger of a powerful spring-loaded steel
trap.

The man's five brothers were on the same track, coming after him totally
unprepared for the tsunami of shock, terror, and awe set to greet their
arrival. For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the
afterlife isn't Abraham's bosom, rather, a sad reunion in fire and despair.
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The parable has nothing to do with men not researching Moses writing. When a person dies not having believed as we are informed. . . their corrupted temporal flesh and the corrupted spirit both return to where they came for, These men will not rise on the last day.

Hell is defined as the living suffering .The wrath of God being revealed form heaven. By reason of Christ's suffering he suffered the pangs of hell (living sacrifice) crying out to the father who strengthened him just as he strengthened Jonas to finish the three day work as the belly of hell or the heart of the earth.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

To literalize the parable found in the middle of a series of parables promotes necromancy as well as purgatory .

State of mind above ground ultimately no speech illusion of a heart that does not know God not seen

Isaiah 29:4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, (heart of the earth )and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.


It is a hypothetical parable. Not an actual God inspired conversation between the dead and the dead (necromancy) with God mediating .

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke16:26

He in effect wanted to make God a mediator between the dead. he completely ignored the advice to show he hears not sola scriptura the voice of God

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.Luke16:27

Simply a sign of no faith that could please God. Moses and the prophets the word of God.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (again refusing to believe) And he said unto him If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke16:29-31

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● Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them"

A very useful Prophet in any discussion of the afterlife is Jonah because he
was actually there and saw it for himself.

● Jonah 2:1-2 . . Jonah prayed to Jehovah his God from the stomach of the
fish, and he said: "I called out of my distress to The Lord, and He answered
me. I cried for help from the depth of sheol.

● Jonah 2:6 . . I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its
bars was around me forever

The roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummy of a fish; they're
way down deep in the ground.

Jonah's afterlife adventure not only took him deep underground to sheol, but
it also included a resurrection.

● Jonah 2:6 . . But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my
God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" in that verse is the very same word for pit in Ps
16:8-10; which Acts 2:25-31 verifies is speaking of putrefaction.

● Matt 12:39-40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of
a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the
heart of the Earth.

There's a popular theory going around that when people pass away, they
cease to exist. Well; were that true, then Christ would've ceased to exist
when he died on the cross, and it would've been necessary to first re-create
him before his corpse could be restored to life. It would've also been
necessary to first re-create Jonah too before his corpse could be restored to
life. The "cease to exist" theory holds up pretty well in science but it falls flat
in the Bible.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the
Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His remains were laid to rest on the
surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

The only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of the
Earth while at the same time in the heart of the Earth; was for the man and
his body to part company and go their separate ways.

Same for Jonah. The only way that he could be in a fish's tummy while at
the same time at the roots of the mountains was for the man and his body
to part company and go their separate ways.

Jesus and Jonah are the two best biblical proofs I know of that there is an
afterlife; and that part of it is located somewhere deep underground. For a
great many people who've gone on before us, its discovery has been a
terrible disappointment.
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People are able to terminate each other's bodies, but according to Jesus'
statements they are unable to terminate each other's souls.

● Matt 10:28 . . Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill
the soul:

● Luke 12:4 . . Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have
no more that they can do.

Well: if ordinary people's souls survive the termination of their body, then I
think it's 100% safe to assume that Jesus Christ's soul survived crucifixion.

● Ps 16:9-10 . . My flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul
in sheol, nor will You allow Your holy one to see corruption.

Peter verified that the prophet David was speaking of Jesus when he wrote
that passage in the Psalms. (Acts 2:25-27)

1• Jesus Christ attested that the soul survives the death of the body.

2• David's and Peter's statements indicate that Jesus' soul was taken to
sheol/hades when he passed away on the cross.

3• David's and Peter's statements indicate that sheol and hades are one and
the same place.

4• Christ and the prophet Jonah corroborate each other's statements that
sheol/hades is located somewhere deep underground.

5• Jonah prayed while he was in sheol/hades; thus verifying that the people
residing there are not in hibernation; instead are fully conscious and able to
conduct sensible, intelligent conversations.
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A living soul is one that walks as two together working as one . . . . a form of communication. . Can't kill the soul of God. He is of one mind that works in us, with us to both will and do His good pleasure . But the soul that sins dies. . . as in never to rise to new spirit life No communication with God .

Only God can kills the soul by refusing to commune as two walking together as one. He perform that which he appoints towards us. You can discard the clay but the not hand that forms it .

Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Job 23:12-14

So you're saying that Jonah went to some underground place, or that he died while he was in the whale? Or am I misunderstanding?

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The information you seek is located back in post No.150
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For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. -1 Cor 15:22

this video shows interesting info about the realm of Hades and Death

http://mobilelaz.com/judgmentday/thedayofthelord.mp4

I've never heard this theory before. How do you factor in the Bible verses about people sleeping unconsciously in the grave until Jesus' return?

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

Matthew 9:24
He said to them, “Make room, for the girl is not dead, but sleeping.” And they ridiculed Him.

John 11:11
These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


John 5:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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Like all seemingly impossible tasks: there's a trick to it. (so to speak)
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I'm not really interested in tricks, just what the Bible says if you compare scripture with scripture...

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● Ps 146:3-4 . . Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in
whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in
that very day his thoughts perish.

Some people, Christians no less, honestly believe the passage above teaches
that people cease to exist when they pass away; but were their belief true,
then Christ would've ceased to exist when he passed away on the cross and
in order to restore the Lord's body back to life, it would've been necessary to
create him back to existence. No; I'm pretty sure it's saying something very
different.

Consider all those people who perished in the World Trade Center, in the
Japan and Indonesia tsunamis, in the Haiti earthquake, and the people
gunned down during an outdoor concert in Las Vegas not too long ago. None
of them woke that day planning on it being their last on earth. No, on the
contrary; they had people to see, places to go, and things to do: but in very
short order; whatever was on their minds lost its importance-- their
priorities went right out the window and became no more significant than
green cheese on the moon.

All their plans, their dreams, their schedules, their appointments, their
schemes, their problems, their aspirations, and their loves went right down
the tubes as they were suddenly confronted with a whole new reality to cope
with.

Sudden death can happen to anybody in the form of a stray bullet from a
drive-by, a force of nature, gas explosion, choking on a piece of meat,
electrocution, a drunk driver, a fall in the bath tub; bricks dropped from an
overpass, or any number of out-of-the-blue surprises like the big truck that
mowed down a crowd of people celebrating Bastille Day in France July 14,
2016

People need to start thinking about the afterlife now, while they have the
chance; rather then risk being caught off guard by sudden death where
there will be no time to think; and they find themselves suddenly thrust into
the afterlife a lot sooner than they ever expected when a car accident, train
wreck, plane crash, crime, heart attack, or stroke puts an abrupt end to
every plan they ever made.

"The rich man said: I beg you, father, that you send Lazarus to my father's
house-- for I have five brothers --that he may warn them, lest they also
come to this place of torment." (Luke 16:27-28)

I suspect very strongly that the rich man was only too aware that his
brothers were rational, intelligent men who saw no sensible reason to
believe in an afterlife; after all, even Solomon said so. (Ecc 9:5, Ecc 9:10)

But Abraham didn't recommend Solomon, rather, he recommended much
higher authorities.

"But Abraham said: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear
them." (Luke 16:29)

The Bible says that Abraham himself was a prophet (Gen 20:7). Had the rich
man believed the book of Genesis he would've accepted Abraham's counsel
instead of rejecting it.

What do you suppose ever happened to the five brothers? Well; we know for
sure that they believed neither Moses nor the Prophets; so I think we are
safe to assume the worst: their fate was the same as the brother who went
before them.
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