Not By Works

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calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Anaheim, Cali.
Works has nothing to do with salvation. If we are called to be evangelist, then evangelize. If we are called to support our families and pay taxes, do it. If we are falsely imprisoned. The pray for our Accusers. If we can't do that, then pray for God's help through it all. The only work required if is faith and prayer, but mostly faith if we think thats work. (Some do)
I might have said Faith, hope and love,,, but we were talking about Salvation not fruits of the Spirit, which should increase with salvation, faith and prayer.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Not surprising, pisteuo has been lost to us for over 500 years.
Yes and you have discovered the correct meaning...smh

And for 500 years people have been wandering in the desert unable to be saved because Mr. Pisteou was not there to give a faulty word definition.
:cautious:
 
P

Pisteuo

Guest
Yes and you have discovered the correct meaning...smh

And for 500 years people have been wandering in the desert unable to be saved because Mr. Pisteou was not there to give a faulty word definition.
:cautious:
Accidentally tripping over it would be more accurate.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Amen and obvious by Galatians....faith plus anything to obtain, gain, keep, embellish, work for, earn salvation (and every other word of like caliber and action) = a false gospel with no power to save, is double cursed and all that believe/peddle it are deceived and called fools by Paul......some in the churches of Galatia had corrupted the gospel by preaching saved by faith but kept or completed by the works/deeds of the law <---FALSE AS
Reading this again and again lest these false teachers get inside my head!

Amen.... liberty in Christ.... the only place of freedom and peace
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I am so thankful my daily surrender is not what saves me, but His work upon the cross ... a Perfect Work done completely because of His love for us while we were yet sinners , and that it is completely sufficient to save us to the uttermost.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Romans 5:16 - And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Verse 19 takes care of your concerns and context but verse 18 says what it says. One righteous act resulted in justification and life for all men. So, if all men are not victorious then they must have lost what they were freely given.
If you want a bible that says Jesus died for men in Christ only then you need to write your own because earlier in the same chapter, it is clear that Christ died for the ungodly, which means everyone.

Vs 6-8 debunks your false theology of Christ justifying only a few.

6For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7For rarely will anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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@UnderGrace, there are a couple of passages from Scripture that I don't know how I should unite them. Particularly Matthew 6:14-15 and Ephesians 4:31-32.

Matthew 6:14-15:
" For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Ephesians 4:31-32:

"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

I am not sure how to put these passages together. Is there something in the Greek that may clarify?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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He called him Lord

Luke 19:8-10
8 Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.”
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

He was the only one who sought Jesus here.

Luke 19:2-3
2 Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. 3 And he sought to see who Jesus was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature.

Isaiah 55:6-7
6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Jesus called Zacchaeus by name, and then said, “I must stay at your house today.” Jesus called and saved Zacchaeus and then began a personal relationship with him.
And as a result we see what?
A changed man.
The change was not what saved him.
But it was the personal relationship aka Lord that saved him.

In fact under the law we find that Zacchaeus went beyond the law.

Under the law only 20% had to be given back.

He went beyond that.
So what are you trying to teach here? Are you saying anyone who calls Jesus Lord is eternally saved? Is faith, calling Jesus Lord?

Let's have a comparison between Zacchaeus and the rich young ruler (RYR)

1. They both called Jesus Lord but the RYR was not considered righteous; means that calling Jesus Lord doesn't mean anything.

2. Zacchaeus did not keep the law, the RYR kept the law and was loved by Jesus but was not considered righteous still. So law keeping doesn't matter either.

3. Jesus on answering the RYR about what he needs to do to inherit the kingdom, told him to sell his possessions and give the poor to inherit the kingdom or be considered righteous. The RYR did not and therefore was not considered righteous. Zacchaeus gave back what he had to the poor and salvation (righteousness) came to him and his household.

So clearly, the kind of salvation you are teaching is not what Jesus or the Apostles taught.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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I can tell you one thing we do not have to work to keep it.

Jesus has accomplished it all by His Work on the cross and it is Finished in Him.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8 29-30
When were they glorified?

Let's apply the same to you, UG.

Are you predestined? Are you called? Are you justified? And are you you glorified?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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How does the opposite of pisteou not mean unbelief but disobedience in the following verses?

Mark 9:23-24
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

Whilst you are at it can you define disobedience is as well please.
Easy.
Love believes. Love is a command and the one who loves has obeyed.

1 Cor 13:7....Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Wrong again....

The "endure faithful" is not to gain spiritual/eternal life/salvation

Justified means saved, declared righteous there is no work we do to add to that standing nor is there any work that can undo it.

You again misunderstand Phil 3:12 which is not about gaining eternal life

For Paul knew even that his predestination, calling and justification were not the end. But he needed to stay the course, fight the good fight and endure faithful til the end, to be raised to that First Resurrection of the saints who will be glorified with Christ.
Link
But justification is for all men and not just a few.

Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Rom 5:18Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Titus 3:
3For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, led astray, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures—living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life. 8This saying is trustworthy. And I want you to emphasize these things, so that those who have believed God will take care to devote themselves to good deeds. These things are excellent and profitable for the people.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Again he was not addressing his eternal salvation.
And Paul knew what he was talking about.

Titus 3:7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

You can not hope for what you already have, but if you don't have it, you wait for it patiently.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

For the believer who has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (John 5:24) their hope is real certainty, even though we do not see its fulfillment just yet in regards to receiving our glorified bodies. (Romans 8:24-25)

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. (y)
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

For the believer who has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (John 5:24) their hope is real certainty, even though we do not see its fulfillment just yet in regards to receiving our glorified bodies. (Romans 8:24-25)

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. (y)
Amen
Jesus is our Living Hope
...xox...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Verse 19 takes care of your concerns and context but verse 18 says what it says. One righteous act resulted in justification and life for all men.
Once again, in context, all men in Adam and all men in Christ. All men in Adam are condemned and all men in Christ are justified. (Romans 5:16-19)

So, if all men are not victorious then they must have lost what they were freely given.
The victory is in Jesus (John 16:33; 1 Corinthians 15:57; 1 John 5:4) and not in ourselves. Unbelievers stand condemned (John 3:18) and have not received the gift of eternal life so how can they lose what they don't have? Your doctrine is a train wreck. :cautious:

If you want a bible that says Jesus died for men in Christ only then you need to write your own because earlier in the same chapter, it is clear that Christ died for the ungodly, which means everyone.
My Bible reads just fine. It's your misinterpretation of the Bible that's the problem. Christ did die for the ungodly, which means everyone, but that does not mean everyone is automatically saved. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.. *Not all are believers. *Not everyone has faith.

Vs 6-8 debunks your false theology of Christ justifying only a few.
Not at all and verses 16-19 debunks your false theology of Christ justifying everyone (believers and unbelievers alike).

6 For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7For rarely will anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus died for the sins of the world and His sacrifice atones for the sins of the world, yet that does not mean the whole world is automatically saved. The result was justification and life for (believers) those who are in Christ (Romans 5:17) and not automatically for everyone. (Acts 13:39; Romans 3:26; 5:1; 6:23; 8:1 etc..). You need to find a new church.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Once again, in context, all men in Adam and all men in Christ. All men in Adam are condemned and all men in Christ are justified. (Romans 5:16-19)

Jesus died for the sins of the world and His sacrifice atones for the sins of the world, yet that does not mean the whole world is automatically saved. The result was justification and life for (believers) those who are in Christ (Romans 5:17) and not automatically for everyone. (Acts 13:39; Romans 3:26; 5:1; 6:23; 8:1 etc..). You need to find a new church.
In context and out of context, still all men means all men (world). No such thing as all men in Adam. And your contradiction is not helping your doctrine.

If His sacrifice atones for the sins of the whole world then the result means the sins of the world were atoned for (justification for all). And yes i agree, it doesn't mean all men are victorious, it means only those that work out their salvation in fear and trembling and endure to the end will be victorious.:cool:
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

For the believer who has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (John 5:24) their hope is real certainty, even though we do not see its fulfillment just yet in regards to receiving our glorified bodies. (Romans 8:24-25)

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. (y)
Rom 8:24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Rom 8:24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
I can see that post #111,334 just went right over your head. Do you understand what believers have NOW and what they DO NOT YET have?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Rom 8:24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

and you think we have to keep the Law and the Sabbath while we wait, right??