Is unconditional election biblical?

What are you talking about? YOU are the one reinterpreting what God has said to fit YOUR narrative that you chose to be born again.

Here is the verse again. God not ONLY says they will die, but you conveniently left out that He also said they would die ON THE DAY THEY ATE OF IT.

Genesis 2:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

They Died. They weren't just sick. Please read any definition of what die, died or death means.

The existence of a person's free will or non existence of free will is not really relevant to the debate is what I am trying to state.

I am not sure what Calvin believed with regards to "free will" but I do know he did not see faith as a function of the will/volitional and on this he was correct.

It is just sad the those who follow his teachings do not see how he described saving faith in at least one of his passages where he was actually very correct.

I literally said the scripture only speak of death but nothing on the created image of God. You added that part.

We must understand what death God meant. I believe God meant it as a
threefold death.

1. Spiritual, by the guilt and power of sin: at that instant thou shalt be dead in trespasses and sins, Ephesians 2:1.

2. Temporal, or the death of the body.

3. Eternal, which shall immediately succeed the other.

Does spiritual death mean total depravity? I guess it is according to how you define total depravity.

In the sin and guilt that brings, yes we cannot escape this but to be totally morally incapable or inability of our own choice to put faith in God then no.

Or as a early church father once said.

Unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” -Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.)

That is what you are hung up on, your free will. Again, the will is not free my friend. It is bound in sin, Satan, and self.

Total depravity does not teach that man is as evil as he can be(though we've both witnessed ppl that surely seem to fit into that category), but that all of his whole being was ruined in the fall of Adam. The will included. Your side says that there is a little island of righteousness(the free will) that was untouched, unmarred by the fall. Not so. The whole man is in a ruined stated, including the will.

No.

Here is what I posted when you gave it a 'x'....

But no one can know the Christ but via the word of God. That’s the thrust of Paul’s writing in Romans 10:14-17.

Click to expand...

That was post #953 on pg 48 of this thread. Now, that 'x' means you disagreed with that post, right? So, if you disagree with that post, then that means you believe that ppl can come to saving faith outside of reading or hearing the word of God. The bible does say faith comes from hearing, but hearing what? The word of God, or what we call the bible. Yes, they didn't have all 66 books then as we have now. But they still had the word of God that told them who the Christ was, and what He did to save sinners from their sins.

Those who have never heard the gospel can not learn about the Christ via natural revelation. It does not tell them the gospel. The gospel comes from the word of God, the bible.

Then we cannot be accountable to sin if we are without choice.

Many would beg to differ.

You first said that man is not as evil as he can be but then say his whole being was ruined. Sounds contradicting. To say that the will is included isnt found in scripture.

Just because one has free will doesn't imply they can gain sanctification or redemption or to be righteous in the eyes of God. It just means we are mentally aware of good and evil and have the choice to respond. To have a choice when God knocks at the door to open and invite or ignore and turn away. This is how All are called, All are drawn, and whoever believes is offset by obviously not all will be saved due to personal accountability to the revelations that God provides to them throughout life.

Have you ever studied about the metaphysical moral law? Do you understand the philosophical arguments for moral law and how it is self evident. Moral law would be pointless if the human wasn't free. Just as no one can be accountable if we are not free.

God did not pre elect a certain group and by nonelection chose the other group to be evil. The very concept of evil is best explained by free will.

Not all will hear or understand the Gospel but still have hope as I have already shown this to be true through the infant and mentally handicapped thought experiment. Who thinks about a mother who miscarried and says I sure hope her child was chosen?

If we are not free then how can rightly judge criminals on Earth? If we are not free then they are just reacting to God or environmental factors.

Just so many good counter arguments to the idea that free will doesn't exist. Once studied and reasoned all the way through I am positive you will see how silly that idea is.

Look at the crucifixion. Those who crucified Him, ripped the beard from His face, spit upon Him, mocked Him, nailed Him to the cross. They freely did this, no one forced them(especially God) to do this. Yet we can read this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. Right here we see God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in full display. It was God who stirred up Pul and Tilgath-Pilneser to throttle Israel. It was God who stirred the Assyrians to attack Israel in Isaiah 10. God has used men to fulfill His purpose.
Many would be wrong.


The whole man is ruined. He is born in a state of rebellion[Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:2-5] If God did not restrain man, they would kill each other. Man is not the goody-two-shoes many portray them to be. Man at his very core is wicked. Only God can change them.



If someone is free, even in the will, then the Christ does not need to free them. God does not knock on the door my friend. Rev. 3:20 has been over abused. That was addressed to a church that had fallen into apostasy, not all the lost. In fact, He gives them a new heart[Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26]



The law saved nary a soul, so this is a non sequitor.
There you go with your free will again. God chose a number no man can number and gave them to His Son. He them bore their sins upon the cross, atoning for their sins, propitiating the Father. He is satisfied with this cross work of His Son. In Romans 9 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’ AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’” Here we see that the elect were taken from the same lump as the non-elect. There was nothing in them that was missing in the non-elect. He justly left the non-elect in their already fallen state. He did them no injustice my friend.


You are putting more emphasis on man than you are God. Do you really think if we witness to a person who is mentally incapable of grasping what we tell them, the Spirit can not use those words and bring them to spiritual life? When we speak the word of God to them, unless God moves through them, they will not understand it[1 Cor. 1:18 & 1 Cor. 2:14]. God can speak to the mentally handicapped ppl as we speak to them.






Oh, there are plenty of arguments to free will being a myth. John 8:31ff and Romans 6:6 and 6:16 just for starters.

@Roughsoul1991

And with that last post, I am bowing out. I know we are at an impasse. I thank you for the discussion.

You just have to copy and paste, these long passages which no one reads! I had to delete most of it because it made my short post over 10,000 words!

This Reformed person has known she is saved since God first saved me, 39 years ago! I knew nothing about soteriology, I only knew that I belonged to Jesus, and it was his choice, not mine.

When I was in Arminian churches it always concerned me that sinner's prayers were pushed as a way to be saved. It meant the person was choosing to be saved, not God choosing them. God chose me, I did not choose him. I also couldn't believe that someone could lose their salvation. I knew I was secure in Christ. Even during my bad years, when I was so depressed from the pain of severe Rheumatoid Arthritis, and I got angry at God, because my theology was so immature, I knew he was there, right behind me, waiting for me to turn around. He spent months telling me daily to read 5 Psalms a day. And when I finally did, I read the Psalms for 2 years, reading all 150 of them once a month. At some point, I turned and ran back into God's arms, and he welcomed me back. I was saved the whole time. Because my salvation is dependent upon God's sovereignty, not this weak, plain vessel, who sins and makes mistakes. God elected me, and made me his. And God does not make mistakes.

I feel sorry for Arminians, and the so called people in the middle! They have little assurance of real salvation, because they know they cannot trust themselves. But, trusting God, acknowledging him as the Saviour of the world, is so easy, so wonderful, so joyful. I love Hebrews 13:5 that says, "I will never leave or forsake you."

My confidence is in God alone, not in Calvin, and not myself!

here you reach the conclusion that the Spirit never compels people, by your opinion.
but can you reach that conclusion by scripture?

for example, maybe start in Genesis 28-29
do we see Leah or Rachel being asked if they'd like to marry Jacob?
or do we see Jacob and their father arranging everything themselves, without asking the women?
do we even see Jacob being asked if he would like to marry Leah?
is his marriage to Leah as you say, "no marriage at all" ?? she's the mother of Judah!

or maybe start in the beginning - was Eve's opinion polled before God created her to be Adam's wife?

Still doesn't affect free will.

I prefer the statement God has worked within mankind to fulfill His purpose.

How does this negate free will? Born in rebellion born with the curse of Adam. Once called can not one come out of rebellion? Once acknowledgment of sin can not one see they need a Savior?

Psalm 58 New International Version (NIV)
Psalm 58[a]
For the director of music. To the tune of “Do Not Destroy.” Of David. A miktam.[b]
1 Do you rulers indeed speak justly?
Do you judge people with equity?
2 No, in your heart you devise injustice,
and your hands mete out violence on the earth.
3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

This is written more as poetry. How does a baby be wicked, to devise injustice, and commit violence? How does one lie from the womb? David was writing about wicked rulers and the enemies around him. More accurately it is understood that many people go astray early in life. All are sinners and carry the curse but that doesn't imply total depravity and abolish moral law or the ability to freely think and decide.

Only speaking for free will. Christ is needed. Without a sacrifice for sins that we all too often freely fall into makes us guilty. What is free choice going to do against a holy perfect judge without a Holy perfect sacrifice? We need freedom from sin not freedom from mind. We know good and evil exists the law within us or the written laws tells us this.

Oh boy straight from the Calvinist play book. Romans 9:21 ( isn't about salvation but on services that God designed for his people to do. In context this is speaking on the Jewish people. Some honorable while some common. But if you go with your belief this means you are puppet.

9:22 doesn't say God prepared vessels of wrath but only that he endured or was patient so they would not be without excuse.

Why is God patient if the individual is forced to respond?

9:23-24 God does prepare people for glory. We are in a constant state between glory to glory.

9:25 not sure why you capitalized it but okay I dont see it proving your point?

It may look that way in a debate over if free will is of man. Lol but I can boldly say God gets all the glory.

Great but what about babies? What about the mentally handicap you dont preach to? How can a damage brain understand your language? Why preach at all? The chosen will find God regardless.

Well so far your 3 starters dont prove your point.

why not?

is that verse true?
what does it really mean?

is Romans 1:28-32 "gnosticism" ?

is it about all people or is it only about 'some people' who - thank God - you are not like?

or Romans 5:10 -- "we were haters of God" -- is that only certain people?
why does he write "we" instead of "they" ?
because, gnosticism?

This is always where this debate lands. You think YOU decided, by your intellect and wisdom to conceive and birth yourself to be a Born again Child of God. You had NOTHING to do with your physical conception and birth, so what on earth would make you think you had something to do with your Spiritual conception and birth?
God specifically says it WASN'T by YOUR will (choice)!
John 1:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.

YOU made a "choice" to put (YOUR?) faith in God? I have asked this question before, and haven't gotten a concrete answer. If this faith you had to believe on Jesus Christ wasn't a gift from God, where did it come from?

And if GOD gifted you that faith, and it is only by GOD'S Will that you are born, as SPECIFICALLY stated above, then why do you insist that YOU are the one who decided to be His Child?

Yes, obtaining God’s mercy, the publican says,

Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

The Good News of salvation is what Christ did. God did it. We have no part in it, this is the work of God. We only need to trust Him or believe on him. So sad to this ‘faithless’ generation assuming they receive Christ's righteousness of having no faith. The Holy Spirit is convicting because of God’s word. It only takes to believe.

This ‘mercy’ refers to God not giving us what we do deserve. Whether mercy or grace, God needs faith. So, the passage you gave needs to the completed context in order not to suit into one’s end. As a summary, Paul says ‘whosoever believeth on him’

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

There are no conditions of believing unto salvation. Either you believe it or not. It is not conditioned on the election of God. Election of God is after you have been saved and pertains to ‘service’, not to salvation. Since then, you are contrasting unconditional and conditional to prove election, not salvation.

I'm amazed so many make unsubstantiated claims against so called Calvinism, zero evidence to back up their claims (just make an accusation so it must be right since they've stated it i.e. "Total depravity is Gnosticism" one of the most foolish accusations I've ever read, and that's saying a lot). Then to top this off, they're not in the least bit biblically accurate, everything out of context and dismiss clear teachings given them, and always are reluctant to give God all the glory which thing we declare post by post.

All of you who do this need to pause, pray. You really need to think about all of that.

Many martyrs died violent deaths for Christ not wavering from the faith, Jude 1:3, yes, the Reformed faith that you ridicule and attack daily.

You started off well then your last paragraph went unbiblical and undid all of the rest.

Faith, saving faith, comes from hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

I have not saved myself but Christ has redeemed me. Adam choose to sin. Adam was not beguiled by the serpent. Adam choose to sin and he did it because he loved Eve his wife. John 3:18-21 demonstrates that men choose to love evil or turn from evil. Jesus never told me they had no choice but to come to Him because they were elect and could not resist.

Spirit and through the word of God. I experienced John 16:8-11 and turned from my sin to Christ. Calvinists use the TULIP to overstate bible truths.

The gospel is truth and the gospel is compassion. Gods love is far greater than we give Him credit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yep. Not sure how that changes anything I posted.

But I would ask why YOU believe after hearing the Word of God? Why do YOU believe?
What if I told you that eternal life could be attained by by bringing 70 duck-billed platypus tails to the top of Mt. Everest? Would you believe me?

Cause that's how many view the Gospel. As foolishness. So why do YOU believe it?