Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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from the foundation of the world, whose names were written in the book of life of the Lamb, and were given to the Son.
From the foundation of the world, names have been added to the book of life, from then even to the present. Names are continuously being added.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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The most truthful thing you’ve posted. God’s not willing that any should perish. Hell is the place where unbelievers will go, yet the
Lord did not make hell for any man to go there, just the devil and his angels.
And who are the unbelievers? Those who cannot discern the things of the Spirit until they have been reborn with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 2:14).
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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What would you consider decisional regeneration?

My view is that repentance and faith does not merit grace.

An example would be a man who is commiting adultery on his wife, just because the man has stopped commiting adultery and is pleading for mercy from his wife, does not make the forgiveness received a reward for something you earn, its solely by grace of the wife to choose to forgive you.
Decisional regeneration is the free-willer view that an unsaved person, who possesses a stony heart, must somehow squeeze faith and repentance from it, in order to receive a new heart that wants to love and please God.

Regeneration, in a Reformed context, is the conviction that God gives the unsaved person a heart of flesh to replace the stony heart, and receipt of this heart results in faith and repentance, and a new nature that wants to love and please God.

Decisional regenerationists focus on their decision and their "free will", while Reformed people focus on God's saving work of regeneration.

In fact, they continually focus on both themes more than just about anything else. I don't see any real concept of Soli Deo Gloria, or giving glory to God alone, in the vast majority of them. Instead, they are intent on their alleged libertarian free will choice.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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And who are the unbelievers? Those who cannot discern the things of the Spirit until they have been reborn with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 2:14).
Those who have rejected God’s word. That’s why he’ll has been enlarged. It was not God’s will that any man should go there.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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From the foundation of the world, names have been added to the book of life, from then even to the present. Names are continuously being added.
Well, I guess that would have to be your position because your god can't remember very well, nor does he know who ultimately will be saved :)
 

TooFastTurtle

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Apr 10, 2019
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Decisional regeneration is the free-willer view that an unsaved person, who possesses a stony heart, must somehow squeeze faith and repentance from it, in order to receive a new heart that wants to love and please God.

Regeneration, in a Reformed context, is the conviction that God gives the unsaved person a heart of flesh to replace the stony heart, and receipt of this heart results in faith and repentance, and a new nature that wants to love and please God.

Decisional regenerationists focus on their decision and their "free will", while Reformed people focus on God's saving work of regeneration.

In fact, they continually focus on both themes more than just about anything else. I don't see any real concept of Soli Deo Gloria, or giving glory to God alone, in the vast majority of them. Instead, they are intent on their alleged libertarian free will choice.
I am familiar with the Reformed view. Do you agree with me though? That just because a man repents to his wife about his adultery, it does not merit forgiveness? Its only by grace if he is forgiven.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Well, I guess that would have to be your position because your god can't remember very well, nor does he know who ultimately will be saved :)
Just curious, where does the concept that the Lord has chosen to know all future outcomes and decisions come from? Scripture? Isaiah 46? Logic? God has to know or He can’t be God?
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I am familiar with the Reformed view. Do you agree with me though? That just because a man repents to his wife about his adultery, it does not merit forgiveness? Its only by grace if he is forgiven.
Repentance is toward God, not toward another human. And if he repents of his sins toward God, he will be forgiven. Grace is unmerited, period.

So, asking me if a man repents to his wife doesn't sound coherent to me. Repentance is toward God. The wife may forgive her husband if he confesses it to her, though, and that forgiveness would be an act of grace.

The issue is what brings about repentance. In Reformed theology, it is through regeneration, or being given a heart of flesh that is capable of repentance and faith.

However, what I'm addressing is whether any aspect of being justified, or brought into a right relationship with God, comes from man himself. I think Ephesians 2:1-10 clearly addresses this. In the last few verses, Paul is clear to indicate that all aspects of salvation are given by God. Even faith and repentance are gifts.

Therefore, man can boast about NOTHING. And, even sanctification is caused by God, both in the willing and the doing.

Phil 2:12-13 12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Notice that the man is to work out the salvation he already possesses, not to work for his salvation.

It is the similar concept in Eph 2:10 regarding works that God has given the believer to do.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Just curious, where does the concept that the Lord has chosen to know all future outcomes and decisions come from? Scripture? Isaiah 46? Logic? God has to know or He can’t be God?
Firstly, God hasn't chosen to know all outcomes and decisions. He is unlimited and knows all things by his nature.

The idea that God chooses what to know and what not to know is some kind of open theism teaching from my understanding. It presupposes that God knows all, and then claims he forgets the things he doesn't want to know because knowing all things wouldn't fit with the open theist worldview.

Second, he not only knows all things but conforms them to his purpose.

You can start with Isaiah 46:9-10 and go to Ephesians 1, then visit Romans 8. Read Isaiah 40-55 as well. Isaiah didn't know about this anthropomorphic god of the open theists.

Additionally, we know God created all things, including time and space. He is transcendent, so he is above time and space. Therefore, if he is not limited by time and space, he knows what happens in every place at every time. And, he causes it to conform to his purpose.

He does not live life in sequence like human beings do, nor is he limited to a particular place at a particular time. He inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Firstly, God hasn't chosen to know all outcomes and decisions. He is unlimited and knows all things by his nature.

The idea that God chooses what to know and what not to know is some kind of open theism teaching from my understanding. It presupposes that God knows all, and then claims he forgets the things he doesn't want to know because knowing all things wouldn't fit with the open theist worldview.

Second, he not only knows all things but conforms them to his purpose.

You can start with Isaiah 46:9-10 and go to Ephesians 1, then visit Romans 8. Read Isaiah 40-55 as well. Isaiah didn't know about this anthropomorphic god of the open theists.

Additionally, we know God created all things, including time and space. He is transcendent, so he is above time and space. Therefore, if he is not limited by time and space, he knows what happens in every place at every time. And, he causes it to conform to his purpose.

He does not live life in sequence like human beings do, nor is he limited to a particular place at a particular time. He inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15).
God knew the end from the beginning and now we can too. Read Revelation, it tells us the end.

Most of what you said is human logic, if God is truly God then He must know...or He wouldn’t be God.

Ephesians 1?

When theologians don’t understand something in Scripture, they come up with a name to explain it away...anthropomorphism.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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God knew the end from the beginning and now we can too. Read Revelation, it tells us the end.

Most of what you said is human logic, if God is truly God then He must know...or He wouldn’t be God.

Ephesians 1?

When theologians don’t understand something in Scripture, they come up with a name to explain it away...anthropomorphism.
Keep trying to drag God down to your level..you end up with a man and not God by the time you get done with it. In fact, look in the mirror and you might see your god looking back at you.

Isaiah 46:9-10 is clear.

Additionally, anyone with a cursory understanding of types and shadows can see God's handiwork throughout the history of Scripture. It is absurd to limit God's foreknowledge.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,536
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Phil 2:12-13 12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Talking to th3 already sav3d man who believed the gospel.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Free-willers believe in conditionalism...they believe that God's grace is conditional upon their acceptance ultimately.

Reformed believers are convicted that God causes the person's nature to be changed. A change in nature is the same as a change of the will. That is why they respond in faith and repentance.

Concerning unconditional election, we can't redefine terms. Conditional election means that God supposedly looks down the corridor of time and foresees that the person will place their faith in Christ. He elects them based on this foreseen faith. Unconditional election means that God elects individuals based on his grace, and not on their response. This is because Reformed theology, supported by Scripture, teaches that regeneration, or being born again, is the cause of salvation, and not the result.

The man cannot squeeze faith and repentance out of his stony heart. He must be regenerated in order to express faith and repentance. This occurs along with a preaching of the gospel message, leading to faith, repentance, and confession.

Free-willer theology basically claims that a man with a stony heart causes his own regeneration through a purely human act of faith and repentance. God isn't allowed to change their nature to enable this, either. This is off-limits in their defective theology.

Of course, their defective theology leads to boasting, as the man has something to brag about before God. "You couldn't have done it without MY 1%". Scripture doesn't teach that man has any basis for boasting.

By the way, I have heard free-willers say this explicitly. One guy said, yes, it is true that the only difference between me and the guy who loses his salvation is that I was smart enough to accept Christ. Others think it, they just don't say it.
GOD put In men to know that there Is a GOD and the creation Itself declares to any one with common sense that there Is GOD and HE put In man the ability to reason /communicate to their bodies by giving men 5 sense knowledge or carnal knowledge that there bodies use to function with but when It comes to faith no one can come to GOD and not be repentant In TRUTH so then we ALL come to GOD repenting and then GOD does the rest for we are HIS workmanship created In CHRIST ,So then a change In nature Is not the same as a change In your will.A person's will changes because they learned the TRUTH and respond to that truth and then once GOD changes them their will ,will change.

Concerning unconditional election, we can't redefine terms. Conditional election means that God supposedly looks down the corridor of time and foresees that the person will place their faith in Christ. He elects them based on this foreseen faith. Unconditional election means that God elects individuals based on his grace, and not on their response.
I agree with the conditional part you spoke on but It's just the way you say It like GOD thinks the way a man thinks and Is not fair and we know that GOD IS ALMIGHTY and HE loves RIGHTEOUSNESS.

As far as your response on unconditional election no one can come to GOD and not be TRUE In repenting.,so then their response Would matter.Ithink you are getting tangled up trying to put GOD and man on the carnal level but you don't realize that you are doing that.

GOD's grace Is unconditional but man Is carnal and has to believe.That Is a condition that has to be met,am I right?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Keep trying to drag God down to your level..you end up with a man and not God by the time you get done with it. In fact, look in the mirror and you might see your god looking back at you.

Isaiah 46:9-10 is clear.

Additionally, anyone with a cursory understanding of types and shadows can see God's handiwork throughout the history of Scripture. It is absurd to limit God's foreknowledge.
Human logic, not Bible.

You have to add words and man’s logic to Isaiah 46 to fit what you believe. What has God known from the beginning? The end...yeah, but that means every decision in between as well or He wouldn’t be God...🤔
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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God knew the end from the beginning and now we can too. Read Revelation, it tells us the end.

Most of what you said is human logic, if God is truly God then He must know...or He wouldn’t be God.

Ephesians 1?

When theologians don’t understand something in Scripture, they come up with a name to explain it away...anthropomorphism.
By the way, I'd strongly suggest that anyone buying into this open theism/process theology view of God read Knowing God by JI Packer.

https://smile.amazon.com/Knowing-Go...t_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1572629230

If I haven't made it clear, I believe the god of open theism is an idol of man's imagination, made to be like him.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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By the way, I'd strongly suggest that anyone buying into this open theism/process theology view of God read Knowing God by JI Packer.

https://smile.amazon.com/Knowing-Go...t_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1572629230

If I haven't made it clear, I believe the god of open theism is an idol of man's imagination, made to be like him.
Never heard of open theism before coming to the discussion board.

If anyone wants to know God and all His attributes, I suggest sticking with Scripture and believe what it says. I believe God said what He meant and meant what He said.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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GOD put In men to know that there Is a GOD and the creation Itself declares to any one with common sense that there Is GOD and HE put In man the ability to reason /communicate to their bodies by giving men 5 sense knowledge or carnal knowledge that there bodies use to function with but when It comes to faith no one can come to GOD and not be repentant In TRUTH so then we ALL come to GOD repenting and then GOD does the rest for we are HIS workmanship created In CHRIST ,So then a change In nature Is not the same as a change In your will.A person's will changes because they learned the TRUTH and respond to that truth and then once GOD changes them their will ,will change.


I agree with the conditional part you spoke on but It's just the way you say It like GOD thinks the way a man thinks and Is not fair and we know that GOD IS ALMIGHTY and HE loves RIGHTEOUSNESS.

As far as your response on unconditional election no one can come to GOD and not be TRUE In repenting.,so then their response Would matter.Ithink you are getting tangled up trying to put GOD and man on the carnal level but you don't realize that you are doing that.

GOD's grace Is unconditional but man Is carnal and has to believe.That Is a condition that has to be met,am I right?
I am not sure I understand all of your remarks.

Unconditional election means that Reformation theology does not believe God looks down the corridors of time and elects those who choose God based on their response. He knows what their response is going to be, because he regenerates them and this heart of flesh manifests the fruit of repentance and faith.

Conditional election is held by free-willers and claims that God elects those who choose him. In other words, God doesn't choose anyone at all; they choose themselves. They somehow dredge up faith and repentance from their stony hearts and as a result, God regenerates them.

In other words, in the unconditional election view, God saves whomever he elects to save. He can save anyone by simply regenerating them, no matter how wicked they are. Regeneration assures that the person will respond in faith and repentance.

In the conditional election view, regeneration is not needed to produce faith and repentance. The sinner can produce it himself, through the power of the remaining integrity of his stony heart. In fact, regeneration is a RESULT of his decision, not a cause of it.

Therefore, he has boasting rights before God, because he provided the ultimate decision out of his stony, fallen heart.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Never heard of open theism before coming to the discussion board.

If anyone wants to know God and all His attributes, I suggest sticking with Scripture and believe what it says. I believe God said what He meant and meant what He said.
It's apparent you've had teachers because you guys all use the same points. Which ones have you read or learned from?

Jesse Morrell?
Clark Pinnock?
Gregory Boyd?
Gordon Olsen?
Harry Conn?
Winkey Pratney?

Jesse Morrell is the main one who is flooding Youtube with open theism.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,536
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It's apparent you've had teachers because you guys all use the same points. Which ones have you read or learned from?

Jesse Morrell?
Clark Pinnock?
Gregory Boyd?
Gordon Olsen?
Harry Conn?
Winkey Pratney?

Jesse Morrell is the main one who is flooding Youtube with open theism.
I honestly do not know or ever heard of any of these guys.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Human logic, not Bible.

You have to add words and man’s logic to Isaiah 46 to fit what you believe. What has God known from the beginning? The end...yeah, but that means every decision in between as well or He wouldn’t be God...🤔
He decreed everything, from beginning to end, either through his permissive will or through causing it to happen.

And, he knows all things.

The end will be to his glory.