Not By Works

Since it is God working in us then the level and magnitude of said work is not to be criticized, maligned or condemned, for it is all the work of God.

And yet you can't answer the post. Maybe spend less time talking about people and more time in the Word.

No facts ...just an in ability to understand the scripture..... but then it always evident to me that those who believe salvation can be lost, earned, maintained, forsaken get very little correct.

The key word is 'ultimately'.
If the illuminated person persists long enough in a willful rejection of Christ, God will ultimately make it so they can't believe, hardening them in the position they have chosen to take despite the truth they know to be true through the Holy Spirit.

Not so true with willful, but ignorant, unbelief. There's always hope for that person because there's always hope they will receive illumination and not be ignorant anymore and stop sinning as a result. But what can you give to the person who is illuminated but hardens his heart to what he has been shown?

Illuminated means being shown by the Holy Spirit that something really is true. This goes beyond simply knowing about something. This is actually knowing something is true because the Holy Spirit told you it's true. Perhaps you remember a time when you knew about the gospel, and then later the time when you knew in your heart that what you had heard really was true.

See, anybody can know about the gospel. All you have to do is tell them about it. But only those illuminated by the testimony of the Holy Spirit speaking into their heart can know it's really true. From there that illuminated person decides whether they will submit in repentance to what they now know to be true, or reject it outright. Repeatedly rejecting the testimony of the Holy Spirit will, ultimately, result in God removing the ability to know what they heard is the truth, leaving them with no further opportunity or possibility of coming to repentance.

Ephesians 4:18-19 NIV
"They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity"

In that scripture I read no evidence they had been illuminated?

They are ignorant of the truth, not because they never knew the truth, but because they hardened themselves against it, and as a result have lost all sensitivity to it.

Hebrews also talks about rejecting the truth after being illuminated, and it's severe consequence, here:

Hebrews 6:4-5
"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance."

.

You're going off the topic of this thread:

Justification is a free gift given to us when we believe the illuminating testimony of the Holy Spirit that eternal life comes through the Son of God, not earned by performing righteous works of the law.

People who don't know this yet, because the Holy Spirit has not testified to them about it, sin willfully out of ignorance and can still receive mercy--like Paul did. But people who do know this, because the Holy Spirit has testified to them about, if they continue in their unrepentant state are sinning willfully in knowledge, not ignorance. That's a far different matter.

This is an important distinction in the matter of sinning, before and after salvation, that we must make. That's what me and another poster were talking about. Responsibility in regard to sin is based on how much you know and are therefore responsible for.

Good morning/evening all...
Gods promises are beautiful , read this reminder from our LORD Jesus Christ , and may your hearts be filled with joy...

Have you stopped sinning?

I have stopped sinning according to how John means that in this passage.

1 John 3:6-10 KJV
"6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. "

And when I sin I do this.

1 John 2:9-10 KJV
"9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Kind of off topic. Let's be careful.

A machinist by trade....parts for jets, missiles, at one time space shuttle etc.....

Ok this May be true,

but I hope your not saying they are not saved because of sin, but because of unbelief as the apostle John says.

The giving over to sensuality is the symptom. The hardening of the heart in unbelief and loss of all sensitivity to the Spirit is the cause.

they never had truth, see roman 1, they became blind because they rejected,

The giving over to sensuality is the symptom. The hardening of the heart in unbelief and loss of all sensitivity to the Spirit is the cause.

John also,said if we say we have no sin we are deceived

kind of dangerous to admit one has stopped sinning, It tends to lead to phariseeism

your passage in first John means we no longer live as the world or unbeliever lives, not that we do no longer sin.

We don't know if they were or not. It doesn't say. The Hebrews 6 passage, meanwhile, does say those people were illuminated.

He did say that. And he also said born again people don't sin.

That is exactly what it means.
I no longer sin because I am born again, yet I still sin.