Not By Works

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TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
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So now you are adding to what I have written.

Seriously, go and read careful what @dcontroversal wrote.....maybe you will see the line that states this...

S. They are identified with CHASTENING <--God does not whip bastards.

And do not attribute words to me that I have never stated about descriptive passages because I do not use that language.
I did not put nothing in your mouth. You said they left the faith I asked and then what happened to them? You said "They were saved and stayed saved."

Case closed. But this is to be expected, I left this thread for the same reason as eternally-gratefull did. Just impossible to deal with the "nuh-uhh" attitude. You just said it and now im "Adding" to it since you slipped out the truth. I will let it be and let it go. This will not go anywhere. Have a good day and God bless you
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I did not put nothing in your mouth. You said they left the faith I asked and then what happened to them? You said "They were saved and stayed saved."

Case closed. But this is to be expected, I left this thread for the same reason as eternally-gratefull did. Just impossible to deal with the "nuh-uhh" attitude. You just said it and now im "Adding" to it since you slipped out the truth. I will let it be and let it go. This will not go anywhere. Have a good day and God bless you
Your words "they left the faith" ... not mine.

And yes I do not compromise with good reason ...OSAS is the Gospel.... a saved person is saved.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
You did not answer the question. :(

It would take three lines tops to state the Gospel message... do you know it?
I tried to share with you, what the Lord told me: Your not ready (to meet Him face to face). I still need to percevere to put away my divided spirit, so that I am not lukewarm, to be among those who overcome. This is in Revelation 3:15
"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness;and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victoriousand sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
 
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So now you are adding to what I have written.

Seriously, go and read careful what @dcontroversal wrote.....maybe you will see the line that states this...

S. They are identified with CHASTENING <--God does not whip bastards.


And do not attribute words to me that I have never stated about descriptive passages because I do not use that language.

Amen......they absolutely cannot grasp that God does not abandon and or yank salvation from a believer, but does indeed whip their butt cheeks off and if necessary take their physical life.....and note the above attack on my character by the one addressing EG when a blind fool can see I neither attacked EG and or was mouthy or being impolite.....
 
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... these people who converted were under intense persecution.... no one was going to pretend to be saved.

Hebrews 6... Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites,[b] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.
Good point.(y)
 
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EleventhHour

Guest

Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.​



Don't do that, please do not leave. I hope you are still with us.
It becomes readily apparent, sadly so, that there are personalities that assault Christians. And I think it is for that very reason that you've posted here. You're leaving....again.
They want people to feel so attacked, so belittled, so disrespected, so mocked, so ridiculed, so tired of being called names, so sick of being accused of posting remarks about scripture that are lies because that Christian did no such thing as what is being claimed against them, so tired of pejoratives, of being laughed at, that they leave!

When in truth the accusers, the wicked minded, the liars, accusers of the brethren, the sisters, are the ones that should leave. Or be made to.
Instead, we have the option to ignore emissaries of the accuser. But to leave, when one is Holy Spirit of God filled, because we are beset on all sides by a few of those in the grip of the adversary is giving evil a right it does not deserve.

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.


There's an ignore list that can bring you peace. It is amazing how lovely it is to read people of Christ and who are of good hearts and sober minds, when discussing scripture. And in the course of that, you may notice in very short order, that the anger, rage, hate, vindictiveness, name calling, slander, defamation, lies that misrepresent the truth of your own posts, being no longer visible, are no longer a part of your reality. Find peace. Ignore the Devil and he shall flee from you. Remember, we're told even Satan can quote scripture and appear as an angel of light. The Devil is a liar.

Be blessed. Don't let the darkness make you flee a site you enjoy. Make the darkness flee from you; ignore list is a Godsend. [hugs you]
You couldn't pass up this opportunity is seems.
Feel better now. :unsure:
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Amen......they absolutely cannot grasp that God does not abandon and or yank salvation from a believer, but does indeed whip their butt cheeks off and if necessary take their physical life.....and note the above attack on my character by the one addressing EG when a blind fool can see I neither attacked EG and or was mouthy or being impolite.....
Well I could say much ...but then you will see BANNED under my name.

But I see and fully comprehend what is being done in that post.
 
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Those particular people where not saved

if they were saved and fell away, salvation is losable and thus obtained by works.
Saying the saved Galatians fell away does not have to then mean that salvation is by works. The Galatians fell away from that which does obtain salvation-faith in Christ.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Amen......they absolutely cannot grasp that God does not abandon and or yank salvation from a believer, but does indeed whip their butt cheeks off and if necessary take their physical life.....and note the above attack on my character by the one addressing EG when a blind fool can see I neither attacked EG and or was mouthy or being impolite.....
I am by no means trying to speak for e.g., in no way am I doing this, nor have he or I talked about this, just wanted to toss this out there.

he and I spent a lot of time debating judeaizers about the Law and the Sabbath. I grew tired of explaining the same thing to the same people over and over, with them just denying it, and repeating the same debunked talking points, so I pretty much left that thread.

e.g. continued to debate them , the same circular conversations over and over., and did so for weeks.

it is possible this burned him out, and lowered the patience level.

just my opinion, just a possible situation.
 
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The Holy Spirit convicts the world

not just certain people

That was not the point I was making. I believe the Holy Spirit eventually speaks to all people. So I certainly wasn't trying to make that point.

The point I'm making is when the Holy Spirit convicts a person about the truth He is illuminating them to the fact that the gospel of Christ really is true. And He does that so they can then put their trust in Christ and be justified. But most don't respond to the revelation that the gospel really is true but choose instead to reject it. Only a few who are enlightened respond by choosing to receive the free gift of justification and be saved. It's that 'many are called, few are chosen' thing.

thats why no one has an excuse
Ultimately, a person has no excuse for not receiving the forgiveness of God in Christ until the Holy Spirit enlightens them to the truth, because before that they don't have the ability to know the gospel really is true to be able to accept it. That ability ultimately doesn't come until the Spirit Himself testifies to a person in their heart. That is when they are truly responsible and without excuse for responding in repentance to the gospel message.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
I did not put nothing in your mouth. You said they left the faith I asked and then what happened to them? You said "They were saved and stayed saved."

Case closed. But this is to be expected, I left this thread for the same reason as eternally-gratefull did. Just impossible to deal with the "nuh-uhh" attitude. You just said it and now im "Adding" to it since you slipped out the truth. I will let it be and let it go. This will not go anywhere. Have a good day and God bless you
This may help you. It is my hope at least. :)Scroll down to, "Brief Summary".

Book of Hebrews

Author: Although some include the Book of Hebrews among the apostle Paul's writings, the certain identity of the author remains an enigma. Missing is Paul's customary salutation common to his other works. In addition, the suggestion that the writer of this epistle relied upon knowledge and information provided by others who were actual eye-witnesses of Christ Jesus (2:3) makes Pauline authorship doubtful. Some attribute Luke as its writer; others suggest Hebrews may have been written by Apollos, Barnabas, Silas, Philip, or Aquila and Priscilla. Regardless of the human hand that held the pen, the Holy Spirit of God is the divine author of all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16); therefore, Hebrews speaks with the same canonical authority as the other sixty-five books of the Bible.

Date of Writing: The early church father Clement quoted from the Book of Hebrews in A.D. 95. However, internal evidence such as the fact that Timothy was alive at the time the epistle was written and the absence of any evidence showing the end of the Old Testament sacrificial system that occurred with Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 indicates the book was written around A.D. 65.

Purpose of Writing: The late Dr. Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute and writer of the best-selling book Kingdom of the Cults, quipped in his usual tongue-in-cheek manner that the Book of Hebrews was written by a Hebrew to other Hebrews telling the Hebrews to stop acting like Hebrews. In truth, many of the early Jewish believers were slipping back into the rites and rituals of Judaism in order to escape the mounting persecution. This letter, then, is an exhortation for those persecuted believers to continue in the grace of Jesus Christ.

Key Verses:

Hebrews 1:1-2: "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.”

Hebrews 2:3: "How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation…"

Hebrews 4:14-16: "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."

Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.”

Hebrews 12:1-2: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Brief Summary: The Book of Hebrews addresses three separate groups: believers in Christ, unbelievers who had knowledge of and an intellectual acceptance of the facts of Christ, and unbelievers who were attracted to Christ, but who rejected Him ultimately. It’s important to understand which group is being addressed in which passage. To fail to do so can cause us to draw conclusions inconsistent with the rest of Scripture.

The writer of Hebrews continually makes mention of the superiority of Christ in both His personage and in His ministering work. In the writings of the Old Testament, we understand the rituals and ceremonies of Judaism symbolically pointed to the coming of Messiah. In other words, the rites of Judaism were but shadows of things to come. Hebrews tells us that Christ Jesus is better than anything mere religion has to offer. All the pomp and circumstance of religion pales in comparison to the person, work, and ministry of Christ Jesus. It is the superiority of our Lord Jesus, then, that remains the theme of this eloquently written letter.

Connections: Perhaps nowhere in the New Testament does the Old Testament come into focus more than in the Book of Hebrews, which has as its foundation the Levitical priesthood. The writer to the Hebrews constantly compares the inadequacies of the Old Testament sacrificial system to the perfection and completion in Christ. Where the Old Covenant required continual sacrifices and a once-a-year atonement for sin offered by a human priest, the New Covenant provides a once-for-all sacrifice through Christ (Hebrews 10:10) and direct access to the throne of God for all who are in Him.

Practical Application: Rich in foundational Christian doctrine, the Epistle to the Hebrews also gives us encouraging examples of God's "faith heroes" who persevered in spite of great difficulties and adverse circumstances (Hebrews 11). These members of God's Hall of Faith provide overwhelming evidence as to the unconditional surety and absolute reliability of God. Likewise, we can maintain perfect confidence in God's rich promises, regardless of our circumstances, by meditating upon the rock-solid faithfulness of God's workings in the lives of His Old Testament saints.

The writer of Hebrews gives ample encouragement to believers, but there are five solemn warnings we must heed. There is the danger of neglect (Hebrews 2:1-4), the danger of unbelief (Hebrews 3:7–4:13), the danger of spiritual immaturity (Hebrews 5:11–6:20), the danger of failing to endure (Hebrews 10:26-39), and the inherent danger of refusing God (Hebrews 12:25-29). And so we find in this crowning masterpiece a great wealth of doctrine, a refreshing spring of encouragement, and a source of sound, practical warnings against slothfulness in our Christian walk. But there is still more, for in Hebrews we find a magnificently rendered portrait of our Lord Jesus Christ—the Author and Finisher of our great salvation (Hebrews 12:2).

Recommended Resource: Hebrews, NIV Application Commentary by George Guthrie.
Hebrews & James, Holman New Testament Commentary by Thomas Lea
 
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After abandoning the faith? There you have it. This is why I say all the warnings in OSAS are meaningless and this proves my point. No reason to warn of apostasy since it has no eternal consequences.

This is the real doctrine. But when confronted with verses demanding holiness and repentance you resort to "Those texts are descriptive" then back to it doesn't matter what you do once you're saved and when confronted back to "we never said that, saved people dont sin like in the past because descriptive texts"

But if we quote those verses we are teaching works salvation. I guess people have to add (descriptive) to the end of them?

Im waiting for the stand up comedy insults in 1...2......3
I have to agree, the argument doesn't stand up very well to examination. In one argument it's said that real believers don't fall from grace, but in another argument it is said they can but they are still saved because if they weren't still saved that would mean salvation is by works.
 
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It does not mean they lost salvation....the verbiage indicates they had turned from grace to an inferior position......they are called foolish and ONLY the peddlers of said dogma are double cursed!
Are you saying that it is whether or not the person who falls away from Christ for justification to law keeping peddles that law keeping doctrine is what determines if they will be lost or not? Do the Galatians who fell away from justification through Christ stay saved as long as they don't peddle what they now believe is true that justification is through works of the law? Explain.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Are you saying that it is whether or not the person who falls away from Christ for justification to law keeping peddles that law keeping doctrine is what determines if they will be lost or not? Do the Galatians who fell away from justification through Christ stay saved as long as they don't peddle what they now believe is true that justification is through works of the law? Explain.
No....what I am saying is clear...Paul double curses those who were peddling a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND which was not the SAME KIND PAUL WAS TEACHING....The Galatian churches had been led astray by the false teachers that were peddling saved by faith but kept or maintained by the works or deeds of the law. He calls the Galatian brethern fools and bewitched because they had swallowed the false teaching which was being peddled. That gospel of a different kind had NO power to save, by adding works to grace thay had VOIDED the correct gospel and He double curses the false message and those false teachers that had corrupted the message.

There is but one correct message that has power to save a man....Believe on and acknowledge the Son by faith. Look in verses 5 through 7 or so chapter one....Note the double use of "another" which is a very very bad translation....two different words with two different applications....

Allos <--of the same kind
Heteros<--Of a different kind

By grace through faith <--Allos, same kind Paul preached

Faith plus to keep or maintain <-Heteros of a differnt kind, no power, double cursed!

The Galatian assemblies were led astray....the never lost their salvation, but were rebuked and called deceived and fools!
 
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I am by no means trying to speak for e.g., in no way am I doing this, nor have he or I talked about this, just wanted to toss this out there.

he and I spent a lot of time debating judeaizers about the Law and the Sabbath. I grew tired of explaining the same thing to the same people over and over, with them just denying it, and repeating the same debunked talking points, so I pretty much left that thread.

e.g. continued to debate them , the same circular conversations over and over., and did so for weeks.

it is possible this burned him out, and lowered the patience level.

just my opinion, just a possible situation.
Maybe so...I have no issue with EG, believe he holds the truth on many things, however I believe my post on why I cannot accept that Hebrews was written to unbelievers was clear enough. I was not attacking him, mouthing and or being impolite.....
 
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No....what I am saying is clear...Paul double curses those who were peddling a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND which was not the SAME KIND PAUL WAS TEACHING....The Galatian churches had been led astray by the false teachers that were peddling saved by faith but kept or maintained by the works or deeds of the law. He calls the Galatian brethern fools and bewitched because they had swallowed the false teaching which was being peddled. That gospel of a different kind had NO power to save, by adding works to grace thay had VOIDED the correct gospel and He double curses the false message and those false teachers that had corrupted the message.

There is but one correct message that has power to save a man....Believe on and acknowledge the Son by faith. Look in verses 5 through 7 or so chapter one....Note the double use of "another" which is a very very bad translation....two different words with two different applications....

Allos <--of the same kind
Heteros<--Of a different kind

By grace through faith <--Allos, same kind Paul preached

Faith plus to keep or maintain <-Heteros of a differnt kind, no power, double cursed!

The Galatian assemblies were led astray....the never lost their salvation, but were rebuked and called deceived and fools!
I'm not seeing how the Galatians can foolishly keep the law for justification and be under a different curse, one that doesn't condemn them to hell, while those who led them astray into that teaching are under a curse that sends them to hell.

Galatians 3:10 NAS
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Maybe so...I have no issue with EG, believe he holds the truth on many things, however I believe my post on why I cannot accept that Hebrews was written to unbelievers was clear enough. I was not attacking him, mouthing and or being impolite.....
I respect both of you very much, agree with both of you on most things, not trying to get in the middle of anything, just wanting to point that out.

i will say no more on this matter,
 
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I'm not seeing how the Galatians can foolishly keep the law for justification and be under a different curse, one that doesn't condemn them to hell, while those who led them astray into that teaching are under a curse that sends them to hell.

Galatians 3:10 NAS
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”
See that is where you miss the mark friend.....the bible overwhelming lays bare eternal security....the curse you cite is directed at those that have not placed themselves into Christ by faith...you are conflating two separate issues......a man that believes they myst keep the law to be saved or kept saved MUST KEEP EVERY JOT AND TITTLE or be cursed under the law. The Galatian brothers had already trusted Christ by faith, were eternally saved, sealed and justified....at some point false teachers began to lead them astray......they never lost their salvation, but were led astray into that which is false...hence PAUL'S correction...!!

Having begun in the faith (saved) are you now made complete through the works of the law (flesh/works)

Who has BEWITCHED you........

Again...there is one gospel that saves....faith plus for or to keep is not it!
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
You did not answer the question. :(

It would take three lines tops to state the Gospel message... do you k
Amen......they absolutely cannot grasp that God does not abandon and or yank salvation from a believer, but does indeed whip their butt cheeks off and if necessary take their physical life.....and note the above attack on my character by the one addressing EG when a blind fool can see I neither attacked EG and or was mouthy or being impolite.....
The Lord does not abandon us, this is not what is going on with believers outside your box. Rather natural leader personality are insecure and need to be in control, and resort to put others down to feel better about themselves. Never satisfying and left with unresolved anger, unable to Love enemies: nothing to do with the mesage of Christ but insecurity hiding; fears we all have to face and overcome in felllowship of His sufering. But I'm not here to lecture you and will be going, thankfully God does not need my help, and we need to come to Him for help, in identity with Christ.
Our time is always ready.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Excellent, excellent point and term, I may have to use it from time to time....I will give you credit of course :)
For those who teach we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works, what do you say we call that, "selective works salvation?"