Not By Works

I didn't say he did.
I said what the writer said: These really saved believers will lose the effect of Christ's perfect sacrifice and ministry if they abandon their faith and confidence in Christ.
And again, since God is making his plea for them to come back He obviously has not turned them over without repentance to their unbelief, yet.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, (there is your condition) you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Notice "until the redemption of the purchased possession." Not until the day of losing salvation. Nowhere do we find the word, "un-sealed" either. Ephesians 4:30 also says "sealed unto/for the day of redemption" and not unto the day of losing salvation.

1 John 2:24-26 KJV
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.

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Read on in verse 27 - But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

The wording here removes all possibility of making it say abiding in the Son and the Father means you will always abide in the word. John says to LET the word you heard in the beginning abide in you, because IF you do that you will abide in the Son and the Father.

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If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. The opposite is also true. If what you heard from the beginning does not abide in you, you also will not abide in the Son and in the Father. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians. Hence the IF. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

So show me the word, "unsealed" in scripture. Why is it so hard for you to accept "sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption?" (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) Stop blaming everything on Calvinism. You are sounding more and more like a Roman Catholic.

A righteous man may fall seven times and rise again.. (Proverbs 24:16) Those who permanently fall away from their original profession of faith demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Paul makes it clear throughout the NT that justification by faith and justification by the law are mutually exclusive. Neither Hebrews 6:4-6 or 10:26-31 unequivocally teach a loss of salvation, but Catholicism and Mormonism would certainly agree with your biased conclusion.

Yet there is nothing conclusive about them permanently abandoning their faith and confidence in Christ.

I'll keep reading, but this still doesn't explain how dead faith means it was always dead.

Seriously, this still does not explain, or prove, that the unfruitful field could never have been fruitful.


You are obviously Calvinist leaning (I know, I know, you probably don't accept ALL of Calvin's teachings).

Calvinists are taught that anything you do in salvation, even your believing, if you're doing it, is to your glory, therefore, anything you do in salvation can only be a work of self righteousness. That's why Calvin had to invent the idea of the believer just waking up one day believing the truth as a sovereign act of God, so the person's believing wouldn't actually be his and wouldn't steal glory from God.

I'm not aware of any scripture whatsoever that puts the believing of a person on the side of self righteous works that can not justify. But I am aware of the scriptures that say, without qualification, that believing in Christ is NOT a self righteous work of trying to earn a declaration of righteousness, and is completely opposed to the doing of works to be justified.

That's right.
What is conclusive is what will happen if they do.

You do a lot of speculating. Just read it for what it says. Dead is dead. Unfruitful is unfruitful.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already.. (John 3:18). That's a choice we make. God does not fatalistically decide who will and won't be saved. I don't believe in fatalistic determination.

Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/it has been granted him from the Father, (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

First, you show me where the words, "can not lose your salvation" are.

Simple.
Because the scriptures tell us we will not have the Son or the Father or eternal life if we do not let what we first heard and believed abide in us.
This is not hard.
Really.

No, actually I'm sounding like the church fathers immediately following the Apostles.

And yet it is argued by once saved always saved that falling away is the sign you were never really saved to begin with. Very confusing doctrine.

The word not being firmly rooted being the cause of falling away, yes, Jesus says that happens.
But how and why does that have to equate to fake, not really believing?
That is what you have not explained.
Jesus said they believe for a little while. You say that was fake believing.....because it didn't last....because it was fake. That's called circular reasoning. You're defining believing for a little while as not believing at all when the scriptures do not do that. Calvinism does that.

That is the predetermined route for the one who believes. That's why the believer should keep on believing and not abandon such a hope as that.

By the way, this is another example of where Calvin had to invent a doctrine to keep the scriptures from negating his teachings. To avoid the conflict between his teaching and the Bible's 'many are called, few are chosen' he had to invent another type of calling that does make it without exception to the glorified state and which accommodates his misguided, and Biblically contradictory, interpretation of Romans 8:30 that says all called will with certainty be glorified. Meanwhile the other calling of God doesn't end up in glorification and so Paul is not talking about that calling in Romans 8:30.

That's right, so explain how my believing, if I do it, is equal to being justified by the law.
As I said, Calvinism says if you do anything toward salvation, even believing, then you are working to earn salvation, therefore, believing has to be a purely sovereign act of God in election that a person just wakes up one day doing. And since believing is a pure, sovereign act of God granted to you, you can't ever lose your salvation, nor stop believing. The premise is wrong, therefore, the conclusion is wrong.

I think I said it earlier in this thread, you have to go to the root of the problem of once saved always saved and that's Calvin's erroneous understanding of election and predestination. But once the tentacles of his beliefs get in a person it's pretty hard to wrestle them loose from them. It's one of the most hardened indoctrinations that I see in people.

Yes, but how does that have to mean it was never alive.
I have dead gardens in my yard......that used to be alive with useful growth. But you say since they are dead and unfruitful now and grown over with thorns and briars that they could not have ever been fruitful.

...but He doesn't call some with the special calling--the effectual one--so they'll remain unbelievers, irregardless of what they may want.
That's contradictory.
I see God testifying the truth to all men in 1 John 5:6-11 , even to the one's who won't believe what he says.

I'm fine with you not following Calvin's teachings to a T.

I'm good with this.
Because that's what the Bible says.
Which is why the crux of once saved always saved is false. Belief in God is NOT a purely sovereign act of God bestowed on a person.
But I see there are different versions of once saved always saved that have changed the reason why man cannot lose his salvation. But the bottom line does seem to be in all of them that since salvation is a God thing it can't be changed.

Dead faith means a faith that is not visible to men plain and simple...this keeps with entire context of the letter....if we are not externalizing what is an inward reality then that faith is dead to those around us.

Logic dictates James was not referring to faith having died since that is not consistent with the rest of scripture.

This is why your argument is wrong...faith is faith.
Faith saves and then said faith must be demonstrated so that our actions bear witness. No one can see our regeneration unless we live it outwardly in word and deed.

Just like Abraham who demonstrated his faith.

Maybe one more explanation won't hurt.

For we are made (Perfect Tense) partakers of Christ, if we hold (Aorist Tense) the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end - Hebrews 3:14 KJV

Interpreted according to the verb tenses used, it says, "We have the ongoing results of the completed past action, which does not need to be repeated, of being made a partaker of Christ (Perfect Tense) IF we have the snapshot of the completed past action of holding fast which may or may not continue (Aorist Tense)."

But once saved always saved interprets it as "We have the snapshot of the completed past action of holding fast, which may or may not continue (Aorist tense) if we have the ongoing results of the completed past action of being made a partaker of Christ".

The 'may or may not' Aorist tense of the verb 'holding' doesn't allow that once saved always saved interpretation. In that interpretation the very holding fast that once saved always saved says can't end, because you are a partaker of Christ, can end according to the Aorist tense for 'hold' being used.

Or twists it so far out of whack....!

Amen....Many are called, but few chosen....

Many does not equal ALL.....

I don't need to find the specific words, "can't lose your salvation" in order to figure out that God's saints are not forsaken and are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28) or Jesus' sheep are given eternal life, will never perish or be snatched from His hand (John 10:27-28) or those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30) or that believers are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

That sounds like exactly what a Roman Catholic would say. They quote the church fathers a lot in order to validate their doctrines, including false doctrines like infant baptism and transubstantiation. The writings of the church fathers are not infallible and they did not always agree with each other.

It's not confusing to me, but it's confusing for those who subscribe to self preservation (pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved) instead of God's preservation.

I did explain it in post #115,712. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-5786#post-4099072

Once again, unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? *Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe"mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31)

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some level) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

It's not a difficult burden to keep on believing and it's not in our own power that we came to believe in the first place. If God did not draw us and enable us (John 6:44,65) we would never have come to believe in the first place.

Matthew 22:14 - Called (2282 - kletos) in Matthew 22:14 is talking about the general call of the gospel which goes out to all men every time the gospel is preached. We see here that many are called but few are chosen, so is this the same call in Romans 8:30? How could it be when this call results in justification and glorification for those who are called?

In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read <Adjective, 2822,kletos> "called, invited," is used, (a) "of the call of the Gospel," Matt. 20:16; 22:14, not there "an effectual call," as in the Epistles, Rom. 1:1,6,7; 8:28; 1 Cor. 1:2,24; Jude 1:1; Rev. 17:14; in Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2 the meaning is "saints by calling;" (b) of "an appointment to apostleship," Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1.

Called (2564 - kaleo) "different Greek word" in Romans 8:30 conveys the idea of an effectual call and emphasizes God's sovereign work. God has invited us to join Him in eternity in incorruptible, sinless, glorified bodies. The aorist tense points to the fact that God effectively had called them into His kingdom and service in the past. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - there is a distinction between the called (klhtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called. Of course, those who are justified and glorified are those who answer and abide. Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Paul did not say here that many were called but few were justified and glorified.

In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read - Verb, 2564, kaleo derived from the root kal---, whence Eng. "call" and "clamor" (see B and C, below), is used (a) with a personal object, "to call anyone, invite, summon," e.g., Matt. 20:8; 25:14; it is used particularly of the Divine call to partake of the blessings of redemption, e.g., Rom. 8:30; 1 Cor. 1:9; 1 Thess. 2:12; Heb. 9:15; cp. B and C, below; (b) of nomenclature or vocation, "to call by a name, to name;" in the Passive Voice, "to be called by a name, to bear a name." Thus it suggests either vocation or destination; the context determines which, e.g., Rom. 9:25-26; "surname," in Acts 15:37, AV, is incorrect (RV, "was called").

Believing is not equal to being justified by the law.

I don't believe that God fatalistically causes you to believe as I already previously explained. God does not simply zap us with saving faith and we have no choice in the matter. To not lose salvation/stop believing is about God's preservation after we choose to believe the gospel and not fatalistic determination.

Apparently, Calvin and I do not share the same understanding of election and predestination, but you share the belief about losing salvation with false religions and cults that teach salvation by works. Indoctrination is a two way street.

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Jn.7:38,39

"The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit." Jn.1:33

Having believed and been regenerated, born of water and the Spirit, made righteous and therefore doing right (1 John3:4-10) we live by faith, by the Spirit. "Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." Gal.5:25 Jesus Christ is Head over all things for His true church. All things. Being His disciples, we deny ourselves today. Our lives are not about what we want, think and feel. We have laid them down. We are Kingdom citizens and the Kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Kingdom of God is in the Holy Spirit.

We heed the Holy Spirit's warning: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hb.3:15. Everything that happened to Israel under the Old Covenant is a warning to us under the New, 1Cor.10. As Jesus' sheep, we hear His voice. Abiding in Him, we walk as He did. He did nothing on His own initiative.

Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God. Hearken diligently unto His voice. Choose life today, not death; blessing, not cursing. All Scripture is God breathed and useful to us today.

Jesus Christ is Lord. Amen. Is the living water flowing from your innermost being today? Do you believe in Jesus?

greek word for believe - pisteuo- meaning- to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to entrust.

so, that is how one believes in Jesus.

You sure it isn't about religious doctrinal zealotry?

The best kept secret in all of Christianity.

The Holy Spirit - the most neglected Person on earth.

I do share the belief with them that one can lose salvation. But I do not share their teaching that salvation is secured, or kept, on the merit of works. Justification leading to salvation is secured and kept by BELIEVING. How is believing a work of the works gospel? Please explain.

And believing in Him, I write of how one lives being a disciple of Jesus Christ. The water that He gives us becomes in us a well of water, gushing up to eternal life. The sons of God are those who are being led by the Spirit of God.

A dynamic life. Life to its fullest measure!