James 2v21 (worth its own thread I think)

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#81
Actually, the question James is answering is can faith save?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Can faith alone save? Absolutely! No works needed to earn salvation nor to prove salvation. If works proves salvation...what works and how many works? Giving someone food proves I’m saved?
If you have Christ within you you have perfect works within you. Do you think that our Lord needs to think of us as capable of living perfectly sin free without Him in order to save us? God knows we can't be perfect why trouble ourselves about it but accept the wonderful grace God offers us.

But how could it be possible we have such negative attitudes toward the perfect law that is Christ, the perfect life that paid for our inability to live sin free without Christ? If you embrace Christ you must embrace the perfect, the divine law that is Christ. To accept Christ you must accept God's laws, it is a package deal.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
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#82
But how could it be possible we have such negative attitudes toward the perfect law that is Christ, the perfect life that paid for our inability to live sin free without Christ? If you embrace Christ you must embrace the perfect, the divine law that is Christ.
You seem to be conflating Christ with the Old Testament Law. Christ is a Person, not a "law".

To accept Christ you must accept God's laws, it is a package deal.
Then you conflate the new covenant with the old covenant. Eventually you need to understand that faith in Christ's perfect sacrifice has set you free from the requirement of following the law to attain salvation, but you don't need to start there.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
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#83
Since works/fruits are a sign of your faith, and faith alone is dead/means you are not saved, can someone please explain to me what is happening here:

Romans 7:19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. 21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God’s law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
Hi Kim,


What a wonderful question. It is a passage in the bible that is often quoted, and the most misunderstood. To understand it better lets look a little earlier in the same chapter, AND carry it through into Romans 8. It will make more sense as we go along.

Romans 7
7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

>the Law is not sinful. The Law exposes the CONDITION of mans heart. The Law exposes SIN. It what we INHERITED from Adam's nature, such that all born into this world are born into this nature. A baby however is not guilty under the Law, as we will see below. You only fall under the death penalty through conscience. Paul will explain this shortly.

9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

> What Paul is saying here is that he was once without guilt (a baby, or a young child). However when he reached an age of accountability, and he, either through the law or conscience (law written on the heart) became aware that he had transgressed either the law or his conscience. He knew that what he was doing was wrong. The moment he did this, he came under the spiritual death penalty. That which was in Pauls inherited nature (sin) took advantage of the fact that there was a law, and slay him.


12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

>Paul says here that the problem is not that the law is evil, or that the law is the killer. Rather sins true nature is fully exposed for what it is. IT (Sin) is the killer.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

>Paul acknowledges the condition he has inherited from Adam

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

>Paul here writes as someone who was one of the most zealous Pharisees. Before he came to Christ, nobody at the time had more passion in pursuing and persecuting the Church, for he was the chosen vessel by the leaders to chase down every Christian believer and throw them into prison or have them killed. He had a love for God’s word as given in the Torah, and truly believed he was doing God’s work by persecuting the church. Yet we find this same man saying that even throughout all of his zeal for the Law of Moses, he could not actually fulfil the law of Moses. For the good that he WANTED to do, he couldn’t. And the evil that he wanted to AVOID, he couldn’t.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

>Here we have a situation of the AS YET unregenerated man, who is comprised of BODY (FLESH) and a SOUL. He is saying here that there is a nature that dwells within Paul’s BODY/FLESH that leads and directs his actions, and overpowers his MIND such that His mind is subject to the desires of fulfilling what his fleshly nature wants. Even though by his mind he DOESN’T WANT TO fulfil the desires of the flesh, he finds himself powerless to resist its drawings. He acknowledges he is a prisoner in this state. (IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT PAUL IS STILL EXPLAINING WHAT HIS LIFE WAS LIKE BEFORE THE CONVERSION)

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

>Paul here realises he needs a SAVIOUR from this condition. And he rightly identifies that the only solution is Jesus Christ. His mind is a slave to God’s Law, but he carries around with him the flesh which is a slave to sin. How does he receive this victory? This is answered in the very next verses in Chapter 8.

Romans 8 (a continuation)

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
>Here we have the solution that Jesus Christ brings. He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. He knows that your old nature is powerless to ultimately resist the flesh, so he gives us the gift of the Spirit of Grace to LEAD US.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

>A new law, called the “Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus” comes into effect, which supercedes and nullifies the “Law of the Sin and Death”. To those who choose to be led by the Spirit of God, we have absolute security and salvation. Sin is NO LONGER the Master. Its power to slay you has been dethroned. If you will get into agreement (your Mind/Soul) with living according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh, then there remains no condemnation upon you. And the powervto live by the Spirit exists. You are no longer a slave to your old nature. We become slaves unto righteousness in Christ Jesus. How then do you live your new life accordingly? Let’s see in the next verses.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

>Here is how you live out your life in the Spirit. By what you SET YOUR MIND UPON. This is still your choice. Do you set your mind (SOUL) upon the flesh ---- well then you will fulfil the lusts of the flesh. Do you set your mind on things ABOVE, i.e. the things of the Spirit. Well then you will be led by the Spirit and NOT fulfil the lusts of the flesh.


So in summary, the Romans 7 piece now becomes clearer. It was never meant to be taken out of context like it has been done throughout the church age. It is the state of helplessness that Paul found himself in before his conversion experience.

 
K

Kim82

Guest
#84
. It is the state of helplessness that Paul found himself in before his conversion experience.
OK so we can safely say that people who say they are Christians and feel this way, they are absolutely NOT SAVED? Because if they had the spirit, it would enable them to set their minds on the things above, which would cause them not to sin?

You said it's a choice whether you sin or not. So you are clearly saying, the Christian can choose whether he want to sin or not, but the unsaved have no choice but to sin?

If that be the case, when a person who says he's a Christian sins, we can definitely say, they are NOT SAVED ? Because a true christian would choose not to sin?


>A new law, called the “Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus” comes into effect, which supercedes and nullifies the “Law of the Sin and Death
The scripture that says we are not under the law, what does it mean?

Am I right in saying, the only difference between the two laws is that, when the commandment was given at first, mankind did not have the Holy Spirit to help them. But now we have the holy spirit, so we can now obey the 10 commandments?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
#86
OK so we can safely say that people who say they are Christians and feel this way, they are absolutely NOT SAVED? Because if they had the spirit, it would enable them to set their minds on the things above, which would cause them not to sin?

You said it's a choice whether you sin or not. So you are clearly saying, the Christian can choose whether he want to sin or not, but the unsaved have no choice but to sin?

If that be the case, when a person who says he's a Christian sins, we can definitely say, they are NOT SAVED ? Because a true christian would choose not to sin?

An unregenerated mans thoughts are continually evil, to the nature of the flesh. The flesh RULES over their minds due to the enemy dwelling within the flesh called SIN. Its an inherited nature from Adam. An unregenerated man has all sorts of vices that consume him. The more they sin, the more doors they open in the spirit the more demonic activity in their lives.

When a person receives Jesus Christ by faith, they become born again. He becomes a new creation (the leopard has changed its spots). What consumed him in the past is no longer an attraction. He has a new found love for Christ and pursues his relationship with God, not wanting to do anything displeasing to his Lord. This is like a honeymoon period. We have been delivered from Egypt and are on our way to the Holy Land (in a spiritual sense). We have moved from death into life. What is amazing is that with this new creation comes a new way of thinking as we have the HOLY Spirit who dwells within us, and He begins to lead us in the ways of righteousness. The objective is to make us more Christlike, by the continual renewing of our minds. The Flesh Nature is STILL THERE, but it doesnt have the power that it once had over the unregenerated man. The Spirit leads and we consciously follow His lead. God however will have various seasons of testing of the Christian (he may be quieter, or you may not sense his presence). It is at these times that He is testing us. Will we continue to set our minds on things above, or will we revert to setting our minds on fleshly activities and draws. EVERY Christian will be tested. Just like Eve and Adam in the Garden, just like Daniel awaiting his prayer being answered, just like the Israelites in the desert -- He is watching to see how we respond. Will we continue to obey. At any stage during the process, a Christian can still CHOOSE to satisfy the Flesh. This is NOT in God's plan for us. He is patient, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. And if we do slip, we have an advocate (Jesus Christ) who intercedes on our behalf with the Father to those who sincerely repent. But our tendencies as believers are towards HOLINESS and not SINFULNESS. It is however unwise to wilfully live in making choices towards your fleshly nature, as the bible says that this has an imapct on your faith. A believer can become an unbeliever due to the deceitfulness of sin, as we are led astray. The loss of faith is a GAME OVER for a Cristian who had once tasted the heavenly gift but yet turned their backs on Jesus. Sin should never be toyed with. This theme is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.



The scripture that says we are not under the law, what does it mean? We are no longer justified by keeping the law. We are justified by Faith alone. By justified it means we "Justice has been satisfied" and we moved from a position of guilt to guiltless. The faith in Jesus, and His shed blood makes us free. We have peace with God. The only acceptable payment/atonement for sin is the sheding of blood (which is why Abels sacrifice was accepted by Cain's not). Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, once and for all, for mankind. If you trust Him, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you will live. No amount of works alone could save you. But TRUE FAITH has associated works (it is the product of genuine faith). But now that we are justified by faith, it doesnt mean we are free to go and break the 10 commandments. This should be obvious. We should uphold the law (not for justification sake, but for the sake of love) See Romans 3v31.

Am I right in saying, the only difference between the two laws is that, when the commandment was given at first, mankind did not have the Holy Spirit to help them. But now we have the holy spirit, so we can now obey the 10 commandments?
Yes. You now have the Power of the Holy Spirit (the power is found in his GRACE). It teaches us to deny ungodliness. You are free to keep the 10 commandments (which are actually all summed up into two commandments namely Love God with all your heart (first 4 commandments) and Love others as yourself (remaining 6 commandments). You will never be justified by upholding them (that is in Christ alone), but you will be loving your neighbour by upholding them.
In Red above.
 
K

Kim82

Guest
#87
The persons who have preached hard saying that, when a person is saved, they do not sin, why is it that they, after declaring that they are saved and have the Spirit of God, how is it that they sin?

And as if that isn't bad enough, they also turn their backs on God altogether. I wonder what went wrong there. Especially the ones who bore lots of fruits to show they were saved, why have they turned away from God?

And the ones who remain, doing every bad thing you can imagine in secret, yet declaring publicly they are set free from sin.

But God knows His children. It isn't necessarily those who think they are.

And as for me, I just thank God that His grace is sufficient for me.
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
15
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#88
James 2v21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Q1) Did he offer Isaac on the altar BEFORE or AFTER he believed in God?
Q2) If after, how could Abraham be justified by Works when he offered Isaac on the Altar?
Abraham's faith and belief in the Creator had been growing for some time.

With so much confusion in the world I do not believe it is wise to separate belief or works.

Generally belief or faith comes before works. Beliefs/ Faith is basically expectations while works is our actions towards those expectations.

For instance our belief/faith in losing weight. If we truly have a belief in losing weights then we have expectations towards this. And if we have expectations towards this subsequently we generate a plan of action unless our belief in losing weight is weak or dead.