Western Churches. Are they becoming Worldly?

Not the church of Christ as you see it. Church of Christ is one of the many names that the church was called that Jesus set up. Others include; kingdom of heaven, church of God, church of the first born, church in the wilderness, The few, The remnant, Zion, New Jerusalem, Jacob/Israel, The primitive baptist, the few, etc.

well said:
especially since The True Church in founded and grounded upon Yeshua's Heart', which of course
would be our hearts which would be the proof of our following and obeying Him in all of His/our ways -
if this were true in our 'new-lives', then we would be 'following-in-His-footsteps' with all of our hearts and actions...

The Church of Christ, sings from hymn books and they don't have music in worship. They believe that they are the one true church and is the same Church of Christ that is mentioned in the Bible.

What I reject is his insistence that one thing "represents" something else entirely; much of his theology (if you can call it that) depends on a figurative interpretation of plainly literal passages of Scripture. Further, there was no "falling away" at Pentecost, unless he means "from darkness". 3000 people surrendered to Christ!

Garee and I have discussed a lot since he joined the site; this isn't the first time I have disagreed with him, so I'm working with a lot of background of which you may be unaware.

Freud strikes again!

Yikes LOL

A third temple would set up the ground work for the abomination of desolation.

The beast has committed the abomination of desolation over and over . The first time in the garden of Eden using a serpent . The abomination of desolation is simply the created corrupted things seen standing in the holy unseen place of God glory .God does not dwell in houses made with human hands and neither is he served by them .We walk after the unseen eternal not after the temporal.

If a person literalizes the spiritual meaning. It woudld make me wonder according to the query in luke 18 that when he does come on the last day. . . will he find faith ?
Remember as sons of God we are not what we will be (flesh and blood) Flesh and blood will not enter the new order.

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The abomination of desecration”. was the whole time period of Kings in Israel. The reformation took it away.

To build another would be to repeat . The reformation restored the period to a time before that period .the time of Judges when men walked by faith .

Un related to what? Your literal understanding?

Here another simple one. No such thing as "sign gifts" .Spiritual gifts not seen. Yes. Sign gifts are for those who walk by sight after the temporal as self edifying tools of wonderments.. Prophecy for those who look up and ahead to find understanding.

Believers walk by the unseen and not after the wisdom of the world.

Foolish and dangerous? Or properly using the simple tools for rightly dividing the parables so that we might study to seek the approval of the unseen author... as His signified signature or tongue.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Do we compare the spiritual unseen understanding to the same unseen understanding, or like that of Romans 1:16. . . faith (the unseen) to faith(unseen) as the gospel.

So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Roman 1: 16-17

Why compare the literal to the literal as the letter of the law? Can the letter of the law save?

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1 Corinthians 2:12-14

What's the spiritual understanding of phrase fall backward, fall away to broken or hung snared like Judas

But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and "fall backward", and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Isaiah 28:13-14 King james

The Easy read Version translates it

The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”
But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds[ to them:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw. Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw. Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isaiah 28: 9-13 ERV

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-8

Better things accompany those who fall forward .

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Hebrews 6:9-10

Yes this says they will set up in GODS temple. Gods temple is gone, that age is over. A coming "Abomination of Desolation" makes no sense what so ever. I never even thought about that before, but you can not desolate a man made house, for this to happen God would have to re-institute the whole Mosaic sacrificial system. That doesn't make any sense and is WAY outside what is written.

This question is for anyone who believes the Abomination of Desolation is "to come". What leads you to believe God will dwell in a temple again, and if you don't believe God will go backwards into this system, how in the world can a desolation take place without "Gods temple"?

Unrelated to each other.

Refuted repeatedly. Scripture calls both tongues and prophecy "signs" and "gifts". That means that the term "sign gifts" is appropriate, even though the two words don't appear together in Scripture.

Yes, and God works in both seen and unseen. That which is seen cannot rightly be conflated with "the wisdom of the world".

I've tried explaining this to you before, and you resist all attempts at sound instruction. Not everything in Scripture is figurative language, period. Assuming that it is has led you into error.

You confuse concepts from passages of Scripture that have nothing to do with each other. This is not about the letter of the law at all. This is not about faith verses non-faith. This is about your view that everything in Scripture is signified language versus the truth, which is that some is signified and some is literal.

You're fighting a century of dispensationalist teaching; rolling a large stone uphill might be easier.

This will occur to be blasphemous to God. The Beast will use this to show the fallen world that he proclaims to be God and unfortunately billions will believe and follow him. This has nothing to with God presence in the temple for he dwells in the hearts of men

The words sign and gift are not used together as a doctrine "Charismatics." A outward shew of the work of the flesh A way that they call receiving the "fulness of Christ" as if we were not filled with that treasure of His power that we have in these earthen body from the moment our new faith, experienced its first work working in us to both will and do His good pleasure called, believing God exercising our new faith we agree as two walking as One.

The phrase "sign gifts" is a oral tradition of men as a wonderment or self edification

Tongues as the different languages of the world as prophecy is that which God uses to speak to the world .It is the Christians new tongue coming from a new heart of faith, by a new incorruptible Spirit.

The sign is against faithless mankind .Prophecy as it is written is for those who walk by faith that exclusively comes from hearing prophecy the word of God. No such thing a sign gift sign are for the with no faith as a sign against them. Prophecy the lively the source of faith to those who believe.

Prophecy, prophesied to Abraham by the Holy Spirit as a work of the faith of Christ. That labor of love gave Abraham the faith to look ahead to a people 400 years later. When God moves a person according to His tongue prophecy . Moses a meek man humbled himself under the hearing of faith and said : What if they beleive not prophecy as you declare your will through me? God who hardened the hearts of mankind , the Holy Spirit even knowing they would reject the sign offered He offered them two signs to expose their rebellious nature as the god of this world .Knowing even then they would still refuse to believe in a God not seen death would work in them . according to the second sign death.


Exodus 4 King James Version (KJV) And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee. And the Lord said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod. And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. And the Lord said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:
That they may believe that the Lord God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee. And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. (deader than a barn door nail )And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land. And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

It can be compared to the parable in Luke 16 with Abraham and the rich man A parallel understanding that shows signs are for the rebellious, natural man .. prophecy as the source of faith of new mankind.

After taking away the false hope of communing with those who have die therefore seeking after familiar spirits that departed from under the Sun. . as a great fixed gulf. That if they do not beleive the two witnesses of God. The Law signified by Moses and prophets by Elias. The law and the prophets (sola scriptura) Then neither would they if Jesus rose for the dead a sign against them that in unbelief make the word of God without effect.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (Lararus) to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 26-31

We walk by faith the gift of God's work. . . working in us . The sign of a new creation with a new tongue of peace .

He had already set the gulf as unpassable. Explained all the details as unpassable to show his lack of faith he like he never heard a word . . . asked to send Lazarus.

Signs for those who believe not. Faith, as it is written (prophecy) for those who do believe the eternal

Then how will it be any different than any other time God is blasphemed? Do you not see the problem here? Gods temple can not be blasphemed if Gods temple is no longer on earth. Really just that simple. Just because I build a temple and say it's Gods temple does not make it in fact gods temple. God removed His temple from earth, never to return. Men can't just built a Lego temple then desecrate it, that means nothing and I don't read that in the bible at all. All that already came to pass just as He said it would. Kind of impossible to hurdle really, not to mention ALL the problems is causes with Jesus words about "this generation" and such.

The only thing I can suggest is pray to the Lord ask him about it. 👍

I do, and what He answers make so much more sense than the alternative. I don't hold these views or have these questions, that why he sends us out to proclaim the truth, and to come together to work these things out, and with all due respect, it's not me that needs to answer these.

Not about the letter of the law, alone, but about the perfect law .The law of faith and not the letter of the law, (scripture.)

Parables, or scripture as prophecy can be historically accurate as well as spiritual . .Again not alone. But with the spirit of faith.. That is His Spirit working in us. It makes the other as the letter of the law complete as a picture of God's mercy to all the sects. The Just and Justifier. . the gospel

2 Corinthians 4:12-14 King James Version (KJV)So then death worketh in us, but life in you.We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Unity of the one Spirit. The Holy Spirit. One faith as One perfect law.

This is not about faith verses non-faith. But faith as comparing faith to faith. the unseen eternal to the unseen. . the gospel

Then. . Yes both. literal as to what the eye sees and spiritual what the spirit reveals . called the trying of the spirits in 1 John to see if of men or of God .

The literal in respect to the temporal corrupted seen or how we understand our surrounding a worldly view. And the Spirit of the law in respect to the eternal not seen . . . that brings life . Together The letter of the Law signified by Moses that kills together with the "law of faith" signified by the Elias as the power of the gospel bring new life .

Matthew 11:13-15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) Before John came, the Law of Moses and all the prophets told about the things that would happen. And if you believe what they said, then John is Elijah. He is the one they said would come. You people who hear me, listen!

He did come as the mediator of the new covenant . John the Baptist the last Levi passing the Levitcus priesthood on to the Son of man Jesus from the tribe of Judah after the manner of Melchedik our High priest continually .Therefore fulfilling the prophecy of Joel. . a kingdom of priests from all the nations.

Look to the things seen the temporal for the unseen understanding hidden in parables.

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Amen, and I will check out your homepage, awesome comment and it made my day, , at 5:29 am. I pray you have a great Sunday, and everyday really, but I look forward to future conversations.