Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

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Jan 17, 2020
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He could if he wanted to.
But love dictates that he not force mankind to respond against their fundamental will to love him and be saved.

The bottom line is, people will either love righteousness, or hate it. That's what this is ALL about.
God is working the hearts and minds of mankind to see who will love righteousness and who will not.
The inherent capacity to love righteousness or hate it belongs to us.
It's a quality that belongs to us, not manufactured in us by God.
“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

This is the New Birth in the OT.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Born again = a new person who hates sin and loves righteousness. And will always overcome.
The soul, the inner man is a new creature. A new creature living in a body of flesh. The battle takes place daily.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Paul says we are a new creation.
Yes....as long as you are in union with the Holy Spirit.
And you remain in union with the Holy Spirit through your continued believing.
Even if you want to argue that a believer will always believe that still means a person has to continue believing to remain in union with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit.

As long as the Holy Spirit is present with your spirit you are a different person than what you were before the Spirit was in union with yours:

6The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. - 1 Samuel 10:6

This is the knowledge that Jesus was referring to when he chastised 'teacher' Nicodemus for not understanding about the birth by the Spirit. A teacher of Israel should have known about this 'new' birth of a person when the Holy Spirit comes into them taught right in the scriptures that a teacher of Israel should know:

3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. a

4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You c must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” d

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

John 3:6-10
 
Nov 16, 2019
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“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

This is the New Birth in the OT.
In the New Covenant too.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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No, not in the Protestant church (generally speaking).
The exact OPPOSITE is true.
Overall, there is no desire or effort being expended to live in God's righteousness in the Protestant church.
And it's all because of a distorted, misguide doctrine called 'once saved always saved' and the misunderstanding of 'election'.
Misguided doctrine? What's the properly guided doctrine called 'once saved always saved' and the proper understanding of 'election? God the Faithful Creators first choice .Not that we first chose him.

Two schools of thought in Hebrews 6. The multiple or serial crucifiers that crucify Christ over, over and over every time they deny him by faith . Or those whose salvation as the better thing God promises in the chapter .He will not to forget the good works they offer towards his authority that works in us according to The verse below.

So then its taste and glance or peek or eat by doing the will of the eternal not seen.

Do without murmuring like the workers of the field that all received same reward "one cent" = "eternal life". Some as it would seem had logs in there eyes. They labored more wanting equality based on their own labor , some labored less that were yoked with Christ. They were all in the nd of the matter paid the same reward. . eternal life..one cent.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:philipians 2:13-14
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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The savior of. . . all the men the father gave to the Son or as many as the father gave. They alone will come . Not all the men born into this world.

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me John 6:36-38

As many as. A unknown faith principle.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, "to them" gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
If your understanding of my post is that I said that Jesus was the Saviour of all men born into this world, that was not my intention. But , maybe your post was not directed to me. If not, my mistake.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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God doesn't go against the will of man. Do you sin? Are you going against God when you sin? God was not willing that Paul go down to Jerusalem, and yet Paul went anyway.
God has given a free will to man to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, But man's eternal life is given by God's sovereign will, without man's acceptance. Once we have been regenerated, we still at times sin, which separates us from God's fellowship, but not from our eternal inheritance, When we repent, and God forgives us, we are welcomed back into his fellowship. After we are regenerated, we, then, accept Christ as our Saviour, not before we are regenerated.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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He could if he wanted to.
But love dictates that he not force mankind to respond against their fundamental will to love him and be saved.

The bottom line is, people will either love righteousness, or hate it. That's what this is ALL about.
God is working the hearts and minds of mankind to see who will love righteousness and who will not.
The inherent capacity to love righteousness or hate it belongs to us.
It's a quality that belongs to us, not manufactured in us by God.
God saw, by his foreknowledge, that none would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2, Because no one would seek him is why he did not leave it up to man's choice to choose eternal life, that is by God's grace, and not my man's acceptance.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Misguided doctrine? What's the properly guided doctrine called 'once saved always saved'
If there is anything that resembles any kind of a 'you can't lose your salvation' doctrine it would be found in the 4th type of soil in the parable of the sower.

According to the parable, perseverance of the word in the soil is dependent on the type of soil that word is planted in. The fourth type of soil is the only one of the four types of soil where Jesus specifically talks about it being fruitful in perseverance. Perhaps only fourth type of soil believers have matured to the place in their faith where they aren't going back to where they came from no matter what tempts them to fall away.

That is the only soil where the seed is planted deeply and firmly enough to resist the temptation to cast the word of God aside in unbelief because of the cares and trials of this life. So, perhaps it's a matter of the believer growing up to the place where he can not fall away from belief in Christ. But to think we are in that place of not being able to fall away when we first believe is unrealistic. In all my 34 years of being a devout Christian I have encountered very, very few fourth type of soil believers. Scripturally speaking they are the only ones who could make some kind of claim of never being able to lose their salvation.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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...the proper understanding of 'election?
Election simply means being chosen by God on the basis of faith, not on the basis of righteous works performed. But Calvin has made election to be this thing where God purposely creates some people to be believers at his own discretion and not others.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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But man's eternal life is given by God's sovereign will, without man's acceptance.
You were doing good until you got to "without man's acceptance".

Of course man has to accept the offer of forgiveness that God, in his sovereignty, extends to man.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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You were doing good until you got to "without man's acceptance".

Of course man has to accept the offer of forgiveness that God, in his sovereignty, extends to man.
Jesus's sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance. Not to man, for man's acceptance. His sacrifice was to pay for the sins of God's elect, which he did. "paid", not offer to pay.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
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IMO, the term 'free will' isn't a reference to a person's ability to choose unless there would be no difference in the results of the choice being made nor is it a reference to the ability to do whatever a person wants to do either.

If a kidnapper tells you that they will release the person if you pay or will kill them if you don't then you don't have free choice. You have a choice, but it is one that a person can make freely because the person is being coerced into making a particular choice.

Moreover, free will wouldn't be a reference to a person's ability to do whatever they want since Adam could have choose not to have eaten anything if he had free will to do whatever he wanted, but man has to eat in order to perpetuate his physical existence. Yet if Adam didn't eat he would have died.

Thus, it seems that 'free will' infers that man can do that which is necessary for him to do.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 1 Cor 10:13
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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IMO, the term 'free will' isn't a reference to a person's ability to choose unless there would be no difference in the results of the choice being made nor is it a reference to the ability to do whatever a person wants to do either.

If a kidnapper tells you that they will release the person if you pay or will kill them if you don't then you don't have free choice. You have a choice, but it is one that a person can make freely because the person is being coerced into making a particular choice.

Moreover, free will wouldn't be a reference to a person's ability to do whatever they want since Adam could have choose not to have eaten anything if he had free will to do whatever he wanted, but man has to eat in order to perpetuate his physical existence. Yet if Adam didn't eat he would have died.

Thus, it seems that 'free will' infers that man can do that which is necessary for him to do.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 1 Cor 10:13
God gave Adam and Eve the freedom to make their own choices, the same that he does for all mankind. There was plenty of food sources that God gave them to sustain their life. Fruits of certain trees, vegetables, and meat from certain animals.

It was man's freedom of choice that all mankind choose not to seek after God, Psalms 53:2-3. God foreknew, that if he would ever have a people that would seek him and worship him that he would have to choose a portion of those that would not seek him, and have Jesus to pay for their sins of not seeking him, and regenerate their lives to a spiritual life.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Jesus's sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance. Not to man, for man's acceptance. His sacrifice was to pay for the sins of God's elect, which he did. "paid", not offer to pay.
You didn't mean that man doesn't have to accept eternal life because it's just given to him according to God's will?
But man's eternal life is given by God's sovereign will, without man's acceptance.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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You didn't mean that man doesn't have to accept eternal life because it's just given to him according to God's will?
God gave man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life as he sojourns here on earth, and he chose not to seek God. Psalms 53:2-3. If God had not chosen a portion of fallen man, and regenerated them to a spiritual life by his sovereign will, then no one would be seeking after, or worshiping God. Man was given a choice, and he chose the wrong choice.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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If God had not chosen a portion of fallen man, and regenerated them to a spiritual life by his sovereign will, then no one would be seeking after, or worshiping God.
Of course that's true.
The problem is, so many people think this means man does not have to decide to trust in Jesus when God grants the opportunity to them to do so, and that it just happens.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Of course that's true.
The problem is, so many people think this means man does not have to decide to trust in Jesus when God grants the opportunity to them to do so, and that it just happens.
Man cannot "decide to trust in Jesus" when he is spiritually dead, 1 Cor 2:14. A man is not spiritually alive until he has been regenerated, Eph 2, and has been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.