What real salvation is.

posthuman · Feb 1, 2020

one small problem: 1 John 1:8 is written in present tense, not past tense, and it's written to believers, not unbelievers, and it's written long after the author came to faith, not before, and John includes himself in the declaration - he says "we" and "us" not "you" -- so your explanation doesn't fit the text. at all.

7seasrekeyed · Feb 1, 2020

Quickened777 said:

merry go round in the making

that is not what you said at all

this is what you said, and I quote from your op:

you are capable of never sinning again?

the how come you are dishonest in how you answered me?

no one is sinless

posthuman · Feb 1, 2020

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

(John 15:3)

did any of the disciple sin, ever, after John 15?
had Christ been crucified and risen yet, in John 15?

what does this tell us?
is being clean - as God defines clean - a matter of never stumbling in our flesh?

Quickened777 · Feb 1, 2020

posthuman said:

Thank you for being so kind as to welcome me! I forgive as I have been forgiven, no worries.
I can see what you mean but if you would read with me Matthew 18:19, I think that you'll see what I am doing here with that prayer is not sinful. The scripture reads:

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."

I am asking for people to receive the living mind and Spirit of Jesus. If the reader and I ask for it, the Father will give.

bud62 · Feb 1, 2020

7seasrekeyed said:

I didn't say you done anything wrong , I was just saying HOW much I like the KJV BIBLE , AND it's about the only one I trust, GOD bless as HE sees fit

Quickened777 · Feb 1, 2020

7seasrekeyed said:

I was a filthy sinner per 1 John 1:8 but Jesus cleansed me of all unrighteousness per 1 John 1:9 and now the Son has set me free! This is the truth.

John146 · Feb 1, 2020

Quickened777 said:

You’ve never sinned since you were saved?

posthuman · Feb 1, 2020

bud62 said:

we've had a lot of 'kjv-only' discussions on this forum over the years i've been here. i don't side with the 'kjv or nothing' crowd, but i do know where you're coming from with it. i think the Hebrew & Greek are the pure inspired word, and every English translation is just that: a translation. i don't want to get into a debate about it because no one seems to ever change their opinion and all that seems to come of it is people get mad at each other and hold grudges. also i don't want to derail the thread

i quote from several different versions, lately mostly nkjv for two reasons: i want not to offend the kjv-onlyists and because i also feel strongly about capitalizing every pronoun etc that refers to God, out of respect - and the nkjv does that ((mostly)) but the kjv doesn't -- so if i quote kjv i have to go back and edit it to change some letters to uppercase, but nkjv does it for me and it's *mostly* the same wording otherwise.

posthuman · Feb 1, 2020

John146 said:

@Quickened777

or never saved until you didn't sin?

not saved anymore if you stumble or turns out you were never saved at all if you happen to fail in something?

bud62 · Feb 1, 2020

Quickened777 said:

Every time we learn it can set us free if we obey the word of GOD , If we don't fellow the truth that HE sends us we have fallen ,For not standing on the truth that HE sent us , The word of GOD is what we stand on ,

John146 · Feb 1, 2020

Quickened777 said:

This is a warning not to walk after the flesh or you may face condemnation. This is not referring to eternal condemnation, but temporal condemnation as the Lord chastens. We have a choice, to walk after the flesh or after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Quickened777 · Feb 1, 2020

posthuman said:

When I have confessed my sin and been cleansed of all unrighteousness and now LOVE my brother and abide in the light, there is no occasion of stumbling in me.

"He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him." -1 John 2:10

bud62 · Feb 1, 2020

posthuman said:

We all fall the BIBLE says & come short , But the thing is with the true believer , Is when he falls , HE believes and repents , get back up , And go's on living by faith , And don't LET Satan keep him down , In a lost condition ,

Quickened777 · Feb 1, 2020

posthuman said:

"For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief." -Proverbs 24:16

"But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." -1 Peter 5:10

Quickened777 · Feb 1, 2020

John146 said:

I must quote Paul regarding perfection, for he said it perfectly.
"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." -Philippians 3:13-15

John146 · Feb 1, 2020

Quickened777 said:

I must quote Paul regarding perfection, for he said it perfectly.
"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." -Philippians 3:13-15

Perfect never means sinless.

posthuman · Feb 1, 2020

Quickened777 said:

why do we have this:

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

(1 John 2:1)

obviously we should not sin -- but if John is writing to the saved - why is there a provision in case one of the saved sins?
doesn't that imply that it is possible to have salvation but still sin?

did Christ save us by perfecting our walk or by making propitiation for us?
do we have salvation when we believe or only after we have been completely redeemed?
is a state of complete perfection & sinlessness, here on this earth, in these mortal tents, 'step 1' of walking with Him or is it the goal? He washed their feet. He cleansed them by His own word.
the question is whether it is forgiveness of sin, or absolute absence of sin in the flesh, that He works in us, from the beginning.

some people don't think anyone is saved yet; they think it's only later that anyone is saved *if* they become sinless on earth. so some people don't believe anyone *has* salvation -- they think believers only have a hope that ultimately rests on their own ability - with help from the Spirit - to keep themselves pure according to some model or another of earthly righteousness. i really don't buy that at all; there are dozens of examples in the NT of salvation being a very much present-tense possession.

i also have a great deal of trouble buying into the idea that to have salvation is to be completely rid of sin in the flesh. it may be because i have a higher standard of sinlessness? i read Romans 14:23, "whatever is not of faith is sin" and i meditate on it, and i see how i can't go even 3 seconds without some thought or action that's not of perfect faith. and i read Romans 3:23, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and i think, anything falling short of God's glory is sin -- and i realize i can't even go a millionth of a second, or a billionth of a millionth, without falling short of the glory of God! the smallest amount of time you can possibly imagine, i have not spent that much time at any point of my life measuring up to His glory!

but i read the next verse: "all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came through Jesus Christ" -- and that i cling to, as my hope. that He died for the ungodly, and even those who do not works, but believe in the One who justifies the ungodly, to them He attributes faith as righteousness.

the scriptures speak of a righteousness that is of faith. i believe a man with faith can still stumble, yet rise again, and that he is just as saved when he stands as he is when he is fallen, because his faith does not fall though his flesh may.

posthuman · Feb 1, 2020

Quickened777 said:

I must quote Paul regarding perfection, for he said it perfectly.
"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." -Philippians 3:13-15

i notice he counts not himself to have apprehended

Quickened777 · Feb 1, 2020

John146 said:

Being perfect and loving your enemy like Jesus commands in Matthew 5:38-48 is a command. One that obeys Jesus does not commit sin. If you commit sin you are a slave to sin. You cannot serve 2 masters.

"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." -John 8:34-36

Quickened777 · Feb 1, 2020

posthuman said:

Yes he COUNTS not himself to have apprehended but what says he 2 verses later in v.15?

"Let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, be thus minded:and if in any thing you be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you." -Phillipiand 3:15

He's saying that if you are perfect, consider yourself to not be perfect, unless you be otherwise minded and God has revealed it to you.

What real salvation is.

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