The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Rev 14 is against that belief.
You would have the dead rising after the harvest in rev 14.
So we know the resurrection can not be post trib.
There are no postrib rapture or resurrection verses.

What verse in rev 14 talking about harvest.
What verse say dead rising after harvest,
I think you mean first fruit, not first harvest.

Rev 14
1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:1 say the Lamb or Jesus stood on the mount zion

Let me ask,you question

When this happen? After trib or before trib.
What is the 144000 do with Jesus in the mount Zion ?

I believe they reign with Jesus for thausand years, I may wrong but this is the verse that make me believe that

Rev20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You say no verse for postrib

When is the last trump ? Before or after trib ?
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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What verse you talking about?
1 Thessalonians 4 stop at verse 18 what do you mean by keep reading?

What verse say angel gathering?
Paul say we, is paul angel?
Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
What verse in rev 14 talking about harvest.
What verse say dead rising after harvest,
I think you mean first fruit, not first harvest.

Rev 14
1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:1 say the Lamb or Jesus stood on the mount zion

Let me ask,you question

When this happen? After trib or before trib.
What is the 144000 do with Jesus in the mount Zion ?

I believe they reign with Jesus for thausand years, I may wrong but this is the verse that make me believe that

Rev20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You say no verse for postrib

When is the last trump ? Before or after trib ?
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Firstfruits is harvest.
They are in heaven. That means they were harvested or martyred.
The whole dynamic of the 144k being firstfruits is that they are DESIGNATED to be harvested first.
That also entails a subsequent main harvest AFTER firstfruits.
We see that main harvest a few verses later,harvested by Jesus.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Some think the last trump is the 7th trump before the bowl/vial judgements.

It is not.

It is what it is. The last trump which happens every year at the feast of trumpets
 
Feb 29, 2020
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A simple reading of the scriptures (without outside influences) regarding the last trump in 1 Corinthians points me to the 7 trumpets in Revelation. I was never lead to seek any trumpets in the old testament. It's strange to me that anyone would be lead anywhere else in the scripture other than to the book of Revelation regarding the last trump.

I have heard some in other places point to feast trumpets in the old testament, but Revelation is the more logical place to connect the prophecy about the last trump. Not the old testament. Even more when you begin to piece together other scriptures regarding the events surrounding the return of Christ and the bringing up of the saints by him to meet him in the air (Colossians 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, 2:2-8; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Revelation 19:11-20:5).
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Firstfruits is harvest.
They are in heaven. That means they were harvested or martyred.
The whole dynamic of the 144k being firstfruits is that they are DESIGNATED to be harvested first.
That also entails a subsequent main harvest AFTER firstfruits.
We see that main harvest a few verses later,harvested by Jesus.
1. matt 24:31.

Is that because verse 31 you think that verse 29 is not rapture?
Let me sumerries the story from verse 29 to 31

Verse 29, > tribulation > the sun darken the mon not give light etc

Verse 30 >Jesus appear on the sky or second coming

I believe it is rapture for most Christian, but not for people that die as a martyr, because that people stay on earth and reign with Jesus for 1000 years (rev 20)

Verse 31.

Angel gather or collect all Christian to be rapture this is happen when Jesus on the air.

So gather in this verse mean to collect and bring them to Jesus, gather together, not gather.


A. Family gathering on new year
B. I gather all the fruit from 3 different farm

Gathering in A not same as gather in B


I hope you understand the different between gather together and gather.



Seem to me you believe verse 31 mean angel gather all people mean angel make a meeting between him and all man

What I believe is angel collected all man to meet Jesus.

And this is happen immediately after tribulation not before (verse29)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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Some think the last trump is the 7th trump before the bowl/vial judgements.

It is not.

It is what it is. The last trump which happens every year at the feast of trumpets
How do you know Paul mean last Trump at the feast of trumphet.

Feast of the trumphet is happen Avery years

So you believe every years the dead rise and the living shal be change?

Why we not rapture yet. It is happen every years
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I quote what is the feast of trumphet

Qoute

The last three holy convocations or “festivals” that the Lord commanded the Jewish people to observe are the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles. Each occurred in the seventh month of the Jewish calendar, the month called Tishrei. The Feast of Trumpets heralded the arrival of that seventh month. It also began what is known as the Ten Days of Awe between the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement, wherein the penitent humble themselves in preparation for the great Day of Atonement.

End quote

So feast of the trumphet happen every years
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Firstfruits is harvest.
They are in heaven. That means they were harvested or martyred.
The whole dynamic of the 144k being firstfruits is that they are DESIGNATED to be harvested first.
That also entails a subsequent main harvest AFTER firstfruits.
We see that main harvest a few verses later,harvested by Jesus.

The 144,000 represent all the saints old and new testament. The whole harvest having nothing to do with outward Jewish flesh as if the kingdom came by observing the temporal things here under the Sun.

Not a Jewish religion. Jesus said of his own flesh it profits for zero .
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christians were pre-trib. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint. Sometime in June of 1830 and out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, the first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving who pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. A month later Irving claimed in a private letter that Margaret’s visions had a huge impact on him. The outstanding feature of Margaret’s visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within the Church, combined with a secret rapture before the revealing of the Antichrist. She saw only these “Spirit filled” Christians “taken” to be with the Lord, while the rest of the Church without this experience would be left to be purged in the tribulation.
Here is the letter Margaret MacDonald wrote to Edward Irving.
“It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.’ I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out. 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man
is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ’tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, "Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ “But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.” This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. ’Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - ‘tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious in breaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in everything we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honor and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of
God’s truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted
worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people was their turning from Jesus who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night,
and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus.”
Please don't compose posts like a wall of text, make use of paragraphs. It's incredibly hard to follow through, especially on mobile. Didn't manage to read this, tried a few times and I get lost. Sorry!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Where It happen, is this in heaven?

No

This verse say It happen in mount Sion,

Mount Sion is in jerusalem

Quote

Mount Zion, the highest point in ancient Jerusalem, is the broad hill south of the Old City’s Armenian Quarter.

End quote
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
544
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Please don't compose posts like a wall of text, make use of paragraphs. It's incredibly hard to follow through, especially on mobile. Didn't manage to read this, tried a few times and I get lost. Sorry!
Sorry about that. It was a copy and paste. I never considered that it was like a "wall" of text. I will try not to let that happen again.
Thanks for telling me.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The 144,000 represent all the saints old and new testament.
That's not what Revelation shows us. The 144,000 are strictly REDEEMED JEWS from the twelve tribes of Israel. And they are contemporaneous with the events in the future, NOT OT saints.
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
544
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That's not what Revelation shows us. The 144,000 are strictly REDEEMED JEWS from the twelve tribes of Israel. And they are contemporaneous with the events in the future, NOT OT saints.
I agree. The 144,000 represent and minister to only the Israelites.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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1. matt 24:31.

Is that because verse 31 you think that verse 29 is not rapture?
Let me sumerries the story from verse 29 to 31

Verse 29, > tribulation > the sun darken the mon not give light etc

Verse 30 >Jesus appear on the sky or second coming

I believe it is rapture for most Christian, but not for people that die as a martyr, because that people stay on earth and reign with Jesus for 1000 years (rev 20)

Verse 31.

Angel gather or collect all Christian to be rapture this is happen when Jesus on the air.

So gather in this verse mean to collect and bring them to Jesus, gather together, not gather.


A. Family gathering on new year
B. I gather all the fruit from 3 different farm

Gathering in A not same as gather in B


I hope you understand the different between gather together and gather.



Seem to me you believe verse 31 mean angel gather all people mean angel make a meeting between him and all man

What I believe is angel collected all man to meet Jesus.

And this is happen immediately after tribulation not before (verse29)
Rev 19 has the church(the bride) assembled IN HEAVEN.
Ask yourself "were they gathered from heaven?"(by angels?)
They were already in heaven
 
Mar 28, 2016
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That's not what Revelation shows us. The 144,000 are strictly REDEEMED JEWS from the twelve tribes of Israel. And they are contemporaneous with the events in the future, NOT OT saints.
Like the signified word "thousand years" to represent a unknown .The hundred and forty and four thousand represent the same. We are not of the number count down or people but rather those who walk by faith . The144, 000 is not a remnant of the whole but is the entire body of the chaste virgin bride..

The Twelve tribes along with the Twelve apostles togerther they are clearly are used to represent the whole as one bride. They could be inward Jews born of the Spirit of Christ but never after the flesh of one nation against another. We walk by faith the unseen not after the flesh as that seen.

The hundred and forty and four thousand in Revelation 7 represent the elect as the bride. those redeemed. Its the end of the world. Not a remnant of the redeemed leaving a unknown number

Not a remnant of the bride made up of tribes and apostles .It has nothing to do with tribes. A person today could not trace their geanalolgy even back to the first century. No accident. They have no DNA that could determine what tribe .

Tribes equal the bride of Christ just as the 12 apostles or destroy the use of the 12 a remnant of all the apostles.

Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:8-9

1444,000 + 0 ….(the number no man can count) = 144, 000.Clerarly according to Revelation 21 tribes are used to represent the bride of Christ the church..

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
 
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I agree. The 144,000 represent and minister to only the Israelites.

What would be the purpose of that that? Shades of color control? I would suggest God is not a respecter of a persons flesh.

What do you think, is he ?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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How do you know Paul mean last Trump at the feast of trumphet.

Feast of the trumphet is happen Avery years

So you believe every years the dead rise and the living shal be change?

Why we not rapture yet. It is happen every years
I am just saying it is what they call it.

The seventh trump, is judgement not rapture.
If you look at the rapture verses they are all at peacetime. Seventh trump is judgement with horrific landscape ,mass murder,destruction.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Where It happen, is this in heaven?

No

This verse say It happen in mount Sion,

Mount Sion is in jerusalem

Quote

Mount Zion, the highest point in ancient Jerusalem, is the broad hill south of the Old City’s Armenian Quarter.

End quote
You left out everything pointing to them being in heaven.
Also there is the heavenly Jerusalem as well as earthly.
Heavenly ark as well as earthly
Heavenly temple and earthly temple
Heavenly my zion,as well as earthly my zion.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The dead ruse after trib and than the living next second

So postrib fit.

I don't understand why the dead rise first make impossible for post trib?

The Bible say the dead rise in the last trump and the living after the dead

John come at 7.00 AM
I come after john

Am I com before 7 AM

If I come after john than I must come after 7 AM
1 Corinthians 15:52 King James Version (KJV)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Remember it happen in the last trumpet.
Please answer my question !
Is the last trumpet before tribulation
There is nothing whatsoever saying the dead rise after the gt and before the mil.
Nothing.
Btw rev 20 says he saw those martyred...nothing about the rising from the dead AFTER the gt...nothing.
That HAS TO BE read into it
 
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There is nothing whatsoever saying the dead rise after the gt and before the mil.
Nothing.
Btw rev 20 says he saw those martyred...nothing about the rising from the dead AFTER the gt...nothing.
That HAS TO BE read into it
I would offer.

The martyred are those who rise on the last day and receive the promise their new incorruptible body. Abel the first martyr. His witness cries out to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ the incorruptible body .that will be a one time event as a flash of lighting.

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrew 11:39-40