Is it a sin to drink alcohol

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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There’s joy in getting drunk?
don't you believe your Bible?

wine that maketh glad the heart of man
(Psalm 104:15 kjv)

it takes about 4 glasses of modern wine within the space of an hour to become drunk. the body digests about one glass's worth over the course of an hour. you can drink all day at a rate of about 1 per hour and never be drunk. even more in a hot environment, because the body will sweat it out.

what, you think one ounce puts a person in a stupor? if so, you're misled.
what, you think no one ever drinks even a single glass of wine or beer or even liquor without becoming '
drunk' ? and that is the only possible outcome and the only possible reason? if so, you're misled.
 

WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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the fact that 'new wine' must go into new wineskins, not old, proves that it is fermenting. ...
No it proves that it would eventually (by time) ferment on its own.

Anything [like the grape], once taken from the "vine" [which is where the word "wine" comes from - simply meaning "of the vine"] would eventually, after a period of time, begin to rotten, to decay, and to ferment, so becoming bitter, useless to all but drunkards.

The "New Wine" [that which was just taken from harvest or vine] would last several days, possibly weeks, months [depending upon preservation method available, which they did have historically*, preserved into syrup and mixed with water] and eventually begin to ferment on its own, so beginning to cause expansion.
*Jer_48:11 Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed.​
This is why it could not be placed into "old bottles", for this process would then burst asunder those older bottles [see Job 32:19; Joshua 9:13], so it had to be placed into "new bottles" [wherein there was strength and room for stretching.] Jesus mentions this very thing [Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37-38].
 

WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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poor Timothy huh

No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.
i take it you think Paul is a false apostle? out to blind all of Christianity?
Read the context, and who was with Paul (Luke):

Let us continue to look at further examples and texts in/of scripture...

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23​

Before continuing with the verse, let us also ask, what is the context of this verse, in the immediate [local, chapter], surrounding [regional, book/s]] and even wider perspective [global, Bible], and what does Paul mean by this? Let us look at all of 1 Timothy and also consider 2 Timothy and elsewhere of Scripture to see together what Paul says to Timothy, so that we will not misunderstand or misuse the text to our own destruction, even as Peter hast said of Paul's epistles:

As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16​

It would be very dangerous to assume in this instance that Paul advocated to Timothy to drink fermented [alcoholic]"wine". We need to be most cautious and careful, lest we advocate sin and rebellion towards the Word of God. We are warned in the Epistles to Timothy by the Holy Spirit Himself that such dangers would come, even from those professing Christianity and having a "form of godliness" but are rather "deceived" and "speaking lies in hypocrisy":

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:1​
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Timothy 4:2​
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 Timothy 3:1​
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 2 Timothy 3:2​
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 2 Timothy 3:3​
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 2 Timothy 3:4​
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2 Timothy 3:5​
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 2 Timothy 3:8​
But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was. 2 Timothy 3:9​
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13​
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Timothy 4:3​
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:4​
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 1 Timothy 1:6​
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 1 Timothy 1:7​

[This very time that has come in our day, of "perilous times" when many "evil men" and "seducers" are waxing "worse and worse", "deceiving and being deceived", and are not enduring "sound doctrine" and have begun to "turn away [their] ears from the truth", even "unto fables" and they withstand the truth and "resist the truth", preaching to be "unholy" and "incontinent", even as "Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses" or as Alexander who has, "greatly withstood our words" [2 Timothy 4:5]. Let not one of us be among that number of those who have departed "from the faith", "having swerved aside unto vain jangling" and "desiring to be teachers of the law" but yet "understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm", and so let us not be counted as one who resists Him [who first loved us], blaspheming the Holy Spirit.]

We are to be as Paul has exhorted Timothy, to "keep thyself pure", and to be "sober", "grave", "blameless", an "example of the believers...in conversation...in purity", doing "nothing by partiality", exercising ourselves unto "godliness", nourished up unto "good doctrine", and "good works", being "not given to wine", but to rather be most "vigiliant", continuing in "holiness with sobriety", with "shamefacedness", being of "good report", so that we may "lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty", doing that which "is good and acceptable before God", departing "from iniquity" and not "giving heed to fables", having "made shipwreck" of the faith by "seducers" and "evil men", and not to be "turned aside after satan" doing, teaching and partaking of other "men's sins" and of those things which are "contrary to sound doctrine" which gives the devil "occasion...to speak reproachfully". Please read and look for those words:

1 Timothy 1:1 --> 1 Timothy 6:21​
2 Timothy 1:1 --> 2 Timothy 4:22​
For our doctrine of food must be according to the clear and pure Word of God, it must first be "sanctified by the Word of God" and we must by "prayer" ask Him in faith to know the truth, and so "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" and have our "instruction in righteousness" and "thoroughly furnished unto all good works" having been called with "an holy calling" and so not to drink of the fermented wine, the very symbol of corrupted doctrine, rebellion, confusion and hypocrisy, that "cruel" venomous beverage of "Belial"[1 Samuel 1:15-16] that "biteth like a serpent" and "stingeth like an adder" and of those who teach that it is acceptable to partake of it, scripture says that they "concerning the truth have erred ... and overthrow the faith of some" and who, unless they repent and turn, will "increase unto more ungodliness".
 

WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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poor Timothy huh

No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.
i take it you think Paul is a false apostle? out to blind all of Christianity?
Read the context, and who was with Paul (Luke):

So, when Paul, after exhorting for so long about those things of "godliness", "sobriety", "vigilance" and "truth" and the stark contrast of "ungodliness", "evil", "sin" and "error", etc, when then of the text at hand?

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23​

Let us look closer at each individual part:

"Drink no longer water, but..."​
"...use a little wine for..."​
"...thy stomach's sake and..."​
"...thine often infirmaties."​
Let us consider as we shall, that many times Luke [“Only Luke is with me. ...”2 Timothy 4:11;p], the beloved physician, was with Paul on his journeyings, and so could help with medical advice about health concerning "infirmaties" which Timothy seemed to have and that concering his "stomach's sake". Let us begin to consider what is being said by Paul to Timothy, by what we have learned in those Epistles and shall yet learn from the "scriptures" on the subject of "wine", for far be it from us to build a doctrine from scripture to advocate the drinking of alcohol from such a text as this when all of the context itself goes against such an idea to begin with.

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23

"Drink no longer water, but..."​
"...use a little wine for..."​
"...thy stomach's sake and..."​
"...thine often infirmaties."​

Other translations also help to bring out what Paul is saying to Timothy:

Bible in Basic English​
5:23Do not take only water as your drink, but take a little wine for the good of your stomach, and because you are frequently ill.​
World English Bible​
5:23 Be no longer a drinker of water only, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.​
Young's Literal Translation​
5:23 no longer be drinking water, but a little wine be using, because of thy stomach and of thine often infirmities;​

etc...

We see that Timothy was only a "water drinker" and was refusing to accept any "wine"[pure grape juice]. Why should this be so? For Timothy was very strict in his duty toward God, in that he understood "that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way" [Romans 14:13;p; for there were still Nazarites who became Christians], "take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak"[1 Corinthians 8:9;p], he being, exhorted to be an "example of the believers" and was making sure that he ate or drank nothing that would by outward appearance cause the downfall of another:

Abstain from all appearance of evil. 1 Thessalonians 5:22,​

... for it was obvious to "abstain from all evil" and yet also better still to even "abstain from all appearance of evil", for some in the scripture have not that knowledge of the difference between "wine"[unfermented; grape juice] and "wine"[fermented; alcohol], and from this second, many were taken by its evil, while others still were to even place blame upon those partaking of the first, just as had been done at Pentecost by the unbelievers ["mocking"; Acts 2:13] and also of those concerning the meats and idols.

"Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge:..." 1 Corinthians 8:7;p​
"... to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;" Colossians 1:9;p​
And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.1 Corintians 13:2​

Timothy, just as Paul, would rather "drink water only" in Christian "charity"[love] than cause anyone to stumble even over that which is perfectly fine to partake of according to the Word of God [in this case, the grape juice]. He was placing himself in more of a "nazarite" position, "sober", "grave", "sobriety", "pure", "holy", etc, by conscious choice, without actually taking any such vow. However, it seemed he was doing so even at the cost of his own health, which was unsafe, in his condition, to do.

Paul then gives advice [likely by the aid of Luke the physician and Holy Spirit] on this condition of Timothy, in letting him know that he could relax on the severe strictness of his current position [which was to partake not even of the pure fruit of the vine], without compromise to integrity and conscience, in saying to Timothy, "Drink no longer water, but..." so that he may "...use a little wine..." [grape juice]"...for..." his particular "stomach" ailments and "often infirmaties".

It is well known of the powerful antioxidants and curative properties of the pure grape juice, especially in stomach ailments and other infirmaties, for it is truly a "revitalizing" drink, full of flavonoids, vitamins, etc. Medical research is confirming even the scriptures here.

However, to recommend alcoholic beverage to someone constantly ill and suffering from stomach ailments would cause them greater harm and suffering.

In fact, Timothy could mix the two [water and grapejuice] even reducing the strength of the grape juice by cutting it or mixing it with water, in case others may yet complain that Timothy had become a "winebibber" and "drunkard"[as the Pharisees had falsely accused and so done to Jesus]:

"...thy wine mixed with water."Isaiah 1:22;p​

The disciples could drink the juice of the grape [that "fruit of the vine" or “new wine”, being unfermented], as had been done at the Wedding in Cana, the Passover [wave sheaf and "first-fruits", the time of the "first ripe grapes", even that which came directly from "the vine" and "branches", "the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes", "took the grapes, and pressed them into ... cup", or from the "winepresses" which are "burst out with new wine", being the thanks giving of "joy and gladness" of the "blessing" from God of the great harvest to come, etc] and at Pentecost, etc.

However, even as Paul has said elsewhere, that even that which is normally good [pure juice of the grape], may not be immediately expedient or edifying in certain situations [just as was the [clean] meats]:

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.1 Corinthians 6:12​
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.1 Corinthians 10:23​

It would be the same as someone personally abstaining from Carob [perfectly fine to eat, even healthy] from people who may have health issues and dietary problems with their choice of chocolate. Or like eating almond/soy/oat "ice cream" in front of them which have issues in their own diet [perhaps they cannot yet cease from sweets or even dangerous sugars, thus becoming diabetics].

Paul would never advocate or recommend to Timothy an action which could lead to his downfall, stumbling, causing others to stumble, into sin, or to a practice which could lead away from Christ Jesus and/or "cause one to forget" His Law and Word.

Alcohol is an intoxicant, a posion and causes one to not be in full control of their senses or reasoning.

Yet the pure Juice of the Grape and unfermented was revitalizing and refreshing, excellent for health and restoration, quickening the mind and body:

And what the land [is], whether it [be] fat or lean, whether there be wood therein, or not. And be ye of good courage, and bring of the fruit of the land. Now the time [was] the time of the firstripe grapes.Numbers 13:20​
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Deuteronomy 7:13​
And when David was a little past the top [of the hill], behold, Ziba the servant of Mephibosheth met him, with a couple of asses saddled, and upon them two hundred [loaves] of bread, and an hundred bunches of raisins, and an hundred of summer fruits, and a bottle of wine. 2 Samuel 16:1​
And the king said unto Ziba, What meanest thou by these? And Ziba said, The asses [be] for the king's household to ride on; and the bread and summer fruit for the young men to eat; and the wine, that such as be faint in the wilderness may drink.2 Samuel 16:2​

Who would give alcohol [known to cause dehydration], to someone "faint in the wilderness"? What physician or Apostle would give advice to Timothy to drink alcohol for his illness? "Foolishness" and "folly" of those who try to turn the "blessing" and "gift of God" and His judgment into "gall" and of His righteousness into "hemlock" [Amos 6:12].
 

WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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don't you believe your Bible?

wine that maketh glad the heart of man
(Psalm 104:15 kjv)

it takes about 4 glasses of modern wine within the space of an hour to become drunk. the body digests about one glass's worth over the course of an hour. you can drink all day at a rate of about 1 per hour and never be drunk. even more in a hot environment, because the body will sweat it out.

what, you think one ounce puts a person in a stupor? if so, you're misled.
what, you think no one ever drinks even a single glass of wine or beer or even liquor without becoming '
drunk' ? and that is the only possible outcome and the only possible reason? if so, you're misled.
Look at the context, it's Creation, and the firstfruits thereof, all without alcohol:
Psa 104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.​
Psa 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:​
Psa 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:​
Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:​
Psa 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.​
Psa 104:10 He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills.​
Psa 104:11 They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.​
Psa 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.​
Psa 104:13 He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works.​
Psa 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;​
Psa 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.​
Psa 104:16 The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;​

Did you see the context? It is the fresh water, fresh grass, fresh herbs, the true food (as per Genesis 1), the fresh "wine' (juice of the grape) in the field, the fresh 'oil' of crushed olives, and the bread (of wheat/barley, etc) which "strengtheneth" man's heart, not destroy him, and in the context of trees with sap (like syrup, and honey, etc), and that which is planted.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Notice how John the Baptist was to be filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.​
The Anti-typical 'John the Baptist', the 'last Elijah' messenger, will be the same, for as John the Baptist heralded the first advent, so too the final messengers (Revelation 14:6-12) likewise herald the second/third Advents.
Nazarites were not allowed to drink unfermented grape juice or to eat raisins either.

The Son of Man came eating and drinking and the Spirit was given not by measure unto Him.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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don't you believe your Bible?

wine that maketh glad the heart of man
(Psalm 104:15 kjv)

it takes about 4 glasses of modern wine within the space of an hour to become drunk. the body digests about one glass's worth over the course of an hour. you can drink all day at a rate of about 1 per hour and never be drunk. even more in a hot environment, because the body will sweat it out.

what, you think one ounce puts a person in a stupor? if so, you're misled.
what, you think no one ever drinks even a single glass of wine or beer or even liquor without becoming '
drunk' ? and that is the only possible outcome and the only possible reason? if so, you're misled.
I’ve had a glass of wine. I could start to feel it effects after one glass. The way I see it, the Lord wants 100% of my mind and body. There’s no such thing as moderation.
 

posthuman

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No it proves that it would eventually (by time) ferment on its own.
so there is already yeast in it. it is already alcoholic. it is called 'wine' and it is expected to age and continue to ferment.
the fresh juices of the winepress are already alcoholic. within 90 minutes of a single living yeast cell being born, it divides continuously, consuming sugars and excreting alcohol. it is only a matter of content.


So, when Paul, after exhorting for so long about those things of "godliness", "sobriety", "vigilance" and "truth" and the stark contrast of "ungodliness", "evil", "sin" and "error", etc, when then of the text at hand?

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. 1 Timothy 5:23
you are presupposing the lie that a single drink of wine makes one drunk.
 

WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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Even the Roman Catholic theology admits that their [fermented] "wine" is indeed "intoxicating" [and we will come back to this again as needful, and the theological error of "Transubstantiation", for it shall be "Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated Substantially", and the eating of dead flesh and the drinking of dead blood.]:
"The "Transubstantiation" of the "Eucharist":
" ... when the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christ's body and Christ's blood. ...
... But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood. ...
... The accidents remain in their totality-for example, that which was wine and is now Christ's blood still has the smell of wine, the intoxicating power of wine. ...
... All we shall say here is that his body is wholly present ... " [EWTN online; Frank J. Sheed; Taken from Theology for Beginners © 1981 by Frank J. Sheed, Chapter 18.] - http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/eucha4.htm

"Intoxicate - transitive verb

1 poison

2 a : to excite or stupefy by alcohol or a drug especially to the point where physical and mental control is markedly diminished b : to excite or elate to the point of enthusiasm or frenzy" [Intoxicate, definition] - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intoxicate

...it is poison, in more ways than one.

Deu_32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.​
 

posthuman

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I’ve had a glass of wine. I could start to feel it effects after one glass. The way I see it, the Lord wants 100% of my mind and body. There’s no such thing as moderation.
you have no idea.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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I’ve had a glass of wine. I could start to feel it effects after one glass. The way I see it, the Lord wants 100% of my mind and body. There’s no such thing as moderation.
Philippians 4:5
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Jesus did not abstain like John the Baptist. He was quite clear about that. How can you say there is no such thing as moderation.
 

posthuman

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The way I see it, the Lord wants 100% of my mind and body. There’s no such thing as moderation.
a teaspoon of sugar also changes your body chemistry and alters the way your brain operates.

'
eat honey, for it is good'
'
do not eat too much honey, or you will vomit it out'

this is the same for all food. everything you put in your body alters its chemical balance. even standing in the sunlight does this. even looking at a beautiful person or scene. even seeing or thinking about someone you cherish or despise. there is literally nothing you can do to stop your body's chemistry from being in flux -- even if you do nothing, it changes, as it lives.

gluttony is sin, eating is not.
 

WithinReason

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Philippians 4:5
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Jesus did not abstain like John the Baptist. He was quite clear about that. How can you say there is no such thing as moderation.
Look up that word please and follow it through scripture.
 

John146

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Why would a believer want to touch or look at something that could destroy their family, quickly? Why play with a rattlesnake? It is well known the destruction it causes every year. Nobody starts out wanting to be a drunk. Everyone starts out in “moderation.”
 

posthuman

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I could start to feel it effects after one glass.
i looked at the woman i love.
i felt it immediately.
for her to exist in my life is a gift from God to me, not a curse.


all foods are clean and meant to be received with thanksgiving. you cannot receive wine with thanksgiving - so do not take it. but do not think that your lack of faith means no one else can enjoy His creation.
 

John146

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i looked at the woman i love.
i felt it immediately.
for her to exist in my life is a gift from God to me, not a curse.


all foods are clean and meant to be received with thanksgiving. you cannot receive wine with thanksgiving - so do not take it. but do not think that your lack of faith means no one else can enjoy His creation.
His creation? God created Jack Daniels? 😂
 

posthuman

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Why would a believer want to touch or look at something that could destroy their family, quickly? Why play with a rattlesnake? It is well known the destruction it causes every year. Nobody starts out wanting to be a drunk. Everyone starts out in “moderation.”
my wife is allergic to opiates & ibuprofen.
she has been through 3 major surgeries with no pain medicine other than corn liquor.
we thank God for it. @withoutreason accuses her of sin for what she thanks God for, and now you accuse her of drunkenness.

i am thinking 'pretty cool' in a sarcastic tone of voice