@Lightskin - You are looooooved, too! It could be that you are over-reacting and misunderstanding what people are saying.........
-
2
- Show all
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I'm okay with the idea, but more in regard to children and people who have not reached a level of accountability to God.
In your scenario, I think God's omniscience would have kept him alive and in the place he needed to be for the day he could/would accept salvation. This is based on this scripture:
"he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us." - Acts 17:25-27
Each of us has been purposely put in the time and circumstances we are in because God has determined that's the best time and place for us to be in for God to bring forth any potential we may have to love and retain the Word of God in salvation and bring it to fruition.
In your scenario, I think God's omniscience would have kept him alive and in the place he needed to be for the day he could/would accept salvation. This is based on this scripture:
"he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us." - Acts 17:25-27
Each of us has been purposely put in the time and circumstances we are in because God has determined that's the best time and place for us to be in for God to bring forth any potential we may have to love and retain the Word of God in salvation and bring it to fruition.
-
3
- Show all
Our works count for nothing in regard to be justified.
But they most certainly count as the obligatory and expected evidence of having been justified by faith apart from works.
Without that evidence, on the Day of Judgment you will be judged as one who has not been forgiven in God's sight through faith in the cross.
"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." - Hebrews 6:8
Don't live a whole lifetime and show up to the Judgment as a thorny field with no fruit, folks.
If you do you'll only be showing yourself to have not been transformed by saving faith in Christ.
You'll be showing yourself to still be in your natural self--thorny and full of thistles, and not planted with the word of God.
But they most certainly count as the obligatory and expected evidence of having been justified by faith apart from works.
Without that evidence, on the Day of Judgment you will be judged as one who has not been forgiven in God's sight through faith in the cross.
"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." - Hebrews 6:8
Don't live a whole lifetime and show up to the Judgment as a thorny field with no fruit, folks.
If you do you'll only be showing yourself to have not been transformed by saving faith in Christ.
You'll be showing yourself to still be in your natural self--thorny and full of thistles, and not planted with the word of God.
-
1
- Show all
You raise an interesting point here (well at least for me)
Firstly kudos for offering an olive branch and asking for forgiveness.
To me the purpose of doing so is to restore relationship and to not be forgiven.
This leads to my point.
I don't think that as believers we should not wait for an apology in order to forgive.
We should forgive regardless (it doesn't mean you should be a punch bag)
To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.
Lewis B. Smedes
Firstly kudos for offering an olive branch and asking for forgiveness.
To me the purpose of doing so is to restore relationship and to not be forgiven.
This leads to my point.
I don't think that as believers we should not wait for an apology in order to forgive.
We should forgive regardless (it doesn't mean you should be a punch bag)
To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.
Lewis B. Smedes
-
4
-
1
-
1
- Show all
I hope you don't think 'holding fast' means 'keep doing works to keep earning salvation'. Because it doesn't mean that. It means keep believing the gospel through which your sins are forgiven.
And as far as the person who does not hold fast to the word of the gospel and goes back to unbelief, if that person refuses all efforts by God to get them to continue in their faith in Christ, God turns them over to their unbelief and they are not allowed to come back to faith in Christ. God does not allow it.
And as far as the person who does not hold fast to the word of the gospel and goes back to unbelief, if that person refuses all efforts by God to get them to continue in their faith in Christ, God turns them over to their unbelief and they are not allowed to come back to faith in Christ. God does not allow it.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Well, @Judges1318 - I disagree with your last sentence. I believe you are saved but are acting like the elder brother of the prodigal son.
No one can pluck us out of Yeshua/Jesus' Hand - we can't even pluck ourselves out.......I am grateful for that.
Some people lose a loved one and get angry at God and shake their fist at Him and turn away from the faith, yet God is there and never leaves them. They become the prodigal son welcomed back home - back into fellowship with Yeshua/Jesus.
Once we're saved, we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit - forever marked and set apart as God's peculiar possession - we're NOT a "perfect" possession......we're a "peculiar" possession. lol!
People that "say they are believers," but are ALWAYS putting their faith and dependency on their own good works for salvation or going to heaven - they have NEVER received the GIFT of salvation through faith in understanding the grace of God in Christ - they remain under the law and under the wrath of God. These are those that are "Pharisees" - running around always being critical and judgmental of believers and trying to get everyone to focus on "works" instead of focusing on God and loving God - entering into a loving relationship with God.
The Father knows who His children are and will ALWAYS welcome His prodigal sons back home!
No one can pluck us out of Yeshua/Jesus' Hand - we can't even pluck ourselves out.......I am grateful for that.
Some people lose a loved one and get angry at God and shake their fist at Him and turn away from the faith, yet God is there and never leaves them. They become the prodigal son welcomed back home - back into fellowship with Yeshua/Jesus.
Once we're saved, we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit - forever marked and set apart as God's peculiar possession - we're NOT a "perfect" possession......we're a "peculiar" possession. lol!
People that "say they are believers," but are ALWAYS putting their faith and dependency on their own good works for salvation or going to heaven - they have NEVER received the GIFT of salvation through faith in understanding the grace of God in Christ - they remain under the law and under the wrath of God. These are those that are "Pharisees" - running around always being critical and judgmental of believers and trying to get everyone to focus on "works" instead of focusing on God and loving God - entering into a loving relationship with God.
The Father knows who His children are and will ALWAYS welcome His prodigal sons back home!
-
3
-
1
- Show all
If you slip, get back up. Nothing to be ashamed of when you slip. Just pay more attention to your surroundings and avoid walking on slippery surfaces.
Walking in the flesh is a slippery surface.
Walking in the Spirit and the integrity of your heart is solid ground and God will keep you from slipping when your on this path.
Walking in the flesh is a slippery surface.
Walking in the Spirit and the integrity of your heart is solid ground and God will keep you from slipping when your on this path.
-
2
- Show all
Not true.
I received the gift of Salvation without works. You cannot get saved with works.
Why do you say we remain under the law as if this were automatically a bad thing? The carnal man being under a spiritual law was condemnation. But a spiritual man is spiritual as the law is spiritual. He is no longer at odds with the law as a born again believer.
The believer establishes the law (Romans 3:31).
It's a bad thing to get people to focus on good works? Really?
If you love God, you will keep his commandments (1 John 5:2).
Having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles: that...they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation (1 Peter 2:12)
I received the gift of Salvation without works. You cannot get saved with works.
Why do you say we remain under the law as if this were automatically a bad thing? The carnal man being under a spiritual law was condemnation. But a spiritual man is spiritual as the law is spiritual. He is no longer at odds with the law as a born again believer.
The believer establishes the law (Romans 3:31).
It's a bad thing to get people to focus on good works? Really?
If you love God, you will keep his commandments (1 John 5:2).
Having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles: that...they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation (1 Peter 2:12)
-
1
- Show all
@Micaiah-imla - perhaps this post of mine will help you understand what I am saying....
A real believer will have good works for the Kingdom of God, NOT for salvation or fear of losing salvation - just plain and simple good works because they are desiring and learning to walk by the Spirit, not the flesh.
@dcontroversal started this thread because (dc- correct me if I am wrong) he had a desire in his heart put there by God to deliver believers (babes in Christ) from Pharisees that keep trying to put us under "works" for salvation and "works" to maintain salvation - we end up living in DOUBT and FEAR, instead of FAITH and LOVE.
So, let's take a look at these Pharisees......... like Adam, they are covered with "fig leaves," but have NO FRUIT - their "works of righteousness" are filthy rags and they have no fruit that is pleasing to God.
IN CHRIST salvation is secure. There are NO WORKS needed to MAINTAIN salvation IN CHRIST. Salvation is a GIFT, it is NOT EARNED.
However, as true born again believers we greatly desire to do "good works" because it pleases God and pleasing God gives us great joy! We MUST have the power of the Holy Spirit within us to do these "good works" that please God.
Just as a tree planted by the rivers of water can bear fruit in season and out of season... true born again believers have salvation, but MUST have the power of the Holy Spirit operating in them. The only fruit that is pleasing to God is the Fruit of the Holy Spirit in the life of a true born again believer.
Salvation is the "work of Christ alone" and the Fruit of good works is the "work of the Holy Spirit alone."
The "work of the Believer alone" is to just simply believe and receive by faith with great love for the Truth when the Holy Spirit reveals The Word of God to us for salvation and for daily living.
We have to stop resisting, quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit.
Stop thinking we can do "good works" pleasing to God in our own strength WITHOUT the Holy Spirit.
At the moment of salvation we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, however we need the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the first time we are filled with the Holy Spirit and lastly, we need to learn to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit by stirring Him up within us by singing songs in our heart to God, daily prayer, reading, studying and meditating on God's Word the Bible and being kind to each other.
Dear Heavenly Father,
Thank You for the Gift of Salvation through Your Son Yeshua/Jesus Christ the Messiah and thank You for the Gift of Your Holy Spirit that seals us, baptizes and fills us with Your Power to testify of Yeshua/Jesus Christ in the Earth and live holy lives pleasing in Your sight.
Forgive us for trying to do "good works" in our own strength. Baptize and fill us all with Your Holy Spirit. We desire the Fruit of the Holy Spirit to be evident in our lives in season and out of season, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, amen.
@dcontroversal started this thread because (dc- correct me if I am wrong) he had a desire in his heart put there by God to deliver believers (babes in Christ) from Pharisees that keep trying to put us under "works" for salvation and "works" to maintain salvation - we end up living in DOUBT and FEAR, instead of FAITH and LOVE.
So, let's take a look at these Pharisees......... like Adam, they are covered with "fig leaves," but have NO FRUIT - their "works of righteousness" are filthy rags and they have no fruit that is pleasing to God.
IN CHRIST salvation is secure. There are NO WORKS needed to MAINTAIN salvation IN CHRIST. Salvation is a GIFT, it is NOT EARNED.
However, as true born again believers we greatly desire to do "good works" because it pleases God and pleasing God gives us great joy! We MUST have the power of the Holy Spirit within us to do these "good works" that please God.
Just as a tree planted by the rivers of water can bear fruit in season and out of season... true born again believers have salvation, but MUST have the power of the Holy Spirit operating in them. The only fruit that is pleasing to God is the Fruit of the Holy Spirit in the life of a true born again believer.
Salvation is the "work of Christ alone" and the Fruit of good works is the "work of the Holy Spirit alone."
The "work of the Believer alone" is to just simply believe and receive by faith with great love for the Truth when the Holy Spirit reveals The Word of God to us for salvation and for daily living.
We have to stop resisting, quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit.
Stop thinking we can do "good works" pleasing to God in our own strength WITHOUT the Holy Spirit.
At the moment of salvation we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, however we need the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the first time we are filled with the Holy Spirit and lastly, we need to learn to be continually filled with the Holy Spirit by stirring Him up within us by singing songs in our heart to God, daily prayer, reading, studying and meditating on God's Word the Bible and being kind to each other.
Dear Heavenly Father,
Thank You for the Gift of Salvation through Your Son Yeshua/Jesus Christ the Messiah and thank You for the Gift of Your Holy Spirit that seals us, baptizes and fills us with Your Power to testify of Yeshua/Jesus Christ in the Earth and live holy lives pleasing in Your sight.
Forgive us for trying to do "good works" in our own strength. Baptize and fill us all with Your Holy Spirit. We desire the Fruit of the Holy Spirit to be evident in our lives in season and out of season, in the Name of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, amen.
-
1
- Show all
The "tree" that Yeshua/Jesus was speaking of was a "fig tree" that represented the Pharisees - after 3 years of the Messiah being among them, there was no fruit - lots of "fig leaves" but no fruit.
The fruit God was looking for was repentance unto SALVATION - belief to receive by faith Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah - Savior and Lord.
Luke 13:6-9 King James Version (KJV)
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
The request to give another year for the fig tree was because Yeshua/Jesus wanted His Father to wait until after His Death, Burial, Resurrection and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
The fruit God was looking for was repentance unto SALVATION - belief to receive by faith Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah - Savior and Lord.
Luke 13:6-9 King James Version (KJV)
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
The request to give another year for the fig tree was because Yeshua/Jesus wanted His Father to wait until after His Death, Burial, Resurrection and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all
E
John 3 5-7
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’
Born physically once. Done, not undone
Born spiritually once. Done, not undone
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’
Born physically once. Done, not undone
Born spiritually once. Done, not undone
-
1
- Show all
Reading James 2:17-26 we see James is reasoning on faith and works. He quotes verse 19 in this context and to emphasize the point he is making. Whether we want to use the word, belief or faith or know, doesnt alter the point James is making in these verses and that is that Faith without works is dead.