Not By Works

Lord Jesus Messiah spoke the truth during His ministry.

Sometimes kindly and gently and mercifully and lovingly.
Sometimes harshly, boldly, condemningly, infuriatingly yet still lovingly!

Speaking the truth to someone is always showing them love. Always.

Dear VCO

Of course no church who believes that once a person is saved they are going to heaven no matter what they do TEACHES anything I’ve said. They don’t even word their position as I’ve just worded it although how I have worded it is true according to their teaching. The doctrine is worded differently. I have not even called it false doctrine. And I have no campaign to to do so. If you only want people who agree with your doctrine to post on a thread that discussed it, well, I guess it would be good to put that in the header somewhere, only those who believe in OSAS ought to post on this thread. I would respect that if you wish.

If you are disappointed so am I and I would like to try and mend fenses. You do not understand my position. There is likely little hope that this post will change that. But you know, you do not grant me the motive you defend yourself with. If love confronts false doctrine, then I am loving those here by confronting false doctrine at least in my mind. Do you see what I mean? You confront what you think is false doctrine out of love but if I confront what I see as false doctrine, then I am here supposedly to trash you. Why cannot you grant me the same motive as you have? To love.

Now Jesus lived 30 years of his live not confronting false doctrine. Jesus lived 3 years with his disciples and did not confront false doctrine everytime because he would have had to do so and nothing else. He spoke to it when it was necessary but most often He did not. We know this because he knew the truth but was not correcting everyone's thinking he met on all the topics they had wrong thinking of. And he did not teach at all for 30 years.

Of course there are times he confronting wrong teaching. But that does not follow that all the other times people around him all had right doctrine in their heads and spoke it out. I can find you scriptures where he did not confront false teaching. YOu see, your defense is he did so all the time. I just need to find some where He did not and I am right that he did not confront false teaching all the time with all people. I mean that was my point. Love means you sometimes do not confront false teaching at the time.

Now I actually do not claim that the Holy Spirit has guided me into all truth. I find that a rather lofty claim and it begs the question as to why Christians have all kinds of different theology and all claim the Holy Spirit guided them into all truth. So I do not claim that. So I will leave that.

You probably don't feel it but I do feel love for you and will accomodate my posts accordingly. I am highly gifted in seeing patterns (no boast, I was tested and am "gifted" intellectually in any case.) So the patterns I see that emerge from certain types of thinking are very clear to me and repeated in different people. But I will refrain from drawing conclusions as to the group who believe as you do.

Just so you know, I do not believe in works salvation. I do believe a believer can fall away from the faith and be lost. Here we disagree. But my desire is that those who are walking with Him and desire a closer walk can read how to find that. Focusing on the self being saved will not accomplish this.

Doesn't it bother you how she is writing? Isn't there supposed to be love there? You have false teaching too and I ignore it. But you do not see the fruit that this theology has born only in her choice of words and emocons? DO you see tolerance and love there? The disciples wanted to call down fire on a village that rejected them and Jesus rebuked them, not the village. Do you see how it looks like those who agree with OSAS do not rebuke one another's lack of tolerance when presented?

Are your posts speaking the truth in love? If someone sent those emocons to you would you feel loved?

Pretty interesting. Jesus came so that we would have the commandments/teaching/will of God written into our hearts so that we can LIVE doing the will of God in our daily choices. What you describe is going back to the written word in a book, not in the heart that is supposed to increase faith. Not having the word written in us so that we live differently as the core of change but that we merely read the book that is supposed to increase faith. Don't get me wrong, reading the Bible is vital. We must know what God has spoken and done in the past and have our thinking corrected as to what is right and wrong and how we are to see ourselves and others. No question. ON THIS YOU ARE RIGHT IN YOUR EMPHASIS.

Now if you read the books of Acts, you will find that "not a few of Jewish leaders" came to believe in Him after the Resurrection. And this is because they knew the Bible and its promises. How come that BIble does not produce faith according to you but reading the Bible with the New Testament does? That Bible actually says "faith comes by hearing" not faith comes by reading.

It means that faith grows by hearing what God wants a man to do in real life, that man DOING what the Holy Spirit guides and the man experiences the outcome. That is how obedience produces faith. It is actually true in any thing. If a person has no faith in Mr. ABC but does what Mr. ABC tells them to do in working out a problem and it works out beautifully because MR ABC knows what he is talking about, faith in Mr. ABC grows. That is how we learn that the person speaking can be trusted. That is what faith is.

This is so sad. God's law was given, according to you, not so that you would treat others as you would like to be treated (that is what righteous is) but so that you might be saved and go to Heaven. End of story for many, I guess. I am very sorry for what my brothers and sisters are missing. This, too, is a fruit of focusing on the joy of being saved and that is it. Not saved from sin, mind you, just the punishment.

By the way, I am not engaging in the petty red X wars. I find it rather childish. "I'll fix you. I'll put a big red X on your post instead of answering it. There, that fixes you." This is what I mean by loving means sometimes refraining from speaking.

"treat others as you would like to be treated (that is what righteous is)"
Oh brother. Can someone please reply to this latest heresy? I am going to limit myself to simply pointing them out.

Not in your case. In fact never in your case.

Does the term "word salad" mean anything to you?

The heresy being that righteousness in God's eyes is not at all related to how you treat others? Really? Righteousness is not related to what you do and so you can behave as you wish and are just as righteous as if you loved others as you love yourself?

But hey, if I am going to be attacked might as well be attacked for what I believe. I believe that God cares very much about how we treat other people. The second most important instruction from the Lord is to love others as you love yourselves. This is what righteousness is dependent upon and what we will be evaluated upon when we stand before the Judgement seat of Christ and give an account of our lives.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Cor 5:10

How do we accomplish learning to treat others as we would like to be treated? By the saving blood of Christ who frees us from sinful selfish ways that focus solely on us. This is not done by works but by faith to which good behaviour is added not to achieve salvation from hell but to become the men and women God designed us to become.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 2 Peter 1:5

Now you can take me to task for believing that God cares about how we treat other people. And you can also stand and say that you have righteousness in Christ and no other, that is, God is supposed to see Jesus when he looks at you, will give you the same reward Jesus gets because he never saw how you treated other people and you believed Him when He said that your righteousness is in Christ (meaning believing God sees Jesus when He looks at you, NOT that Christ enables you to love others) and nothing you do to others or for others will change any of that. That the others who lived with you have a different story to tell does not matter to you. You can attack me for believing how I treat others matters to God but at least you need to attack what I actually said.

Just admit that you do not understand the post. This happens.

Just as a reality check (in consideration of God's priority in caring), answer the question I asked some time ago, about Who it was that led the conquest of Canaan. I said it was Lord Jesus Messiah as the Bible makes clear.

And who do you say it is?

In truth I don't understand any of your posts, as they are wholly and entirely un-biblical.
The only way to apply Scripture to them is to warn everyone of that very fact, as the Scripture clearly teaches us to do.

Who was talking about righteousness?...I was talking about obedience and how it brings you much closer to God.

Who said my faith was earned?

Obedience brings you much closer to God...so I completely disagree with your teaching.

Being born again is also committing your life to God....you do not sit on your laurels and do nothing.

The Holy Spirit produces the fruit in a born again.....I am forever asking him to make me more like Jesus.


Are you born again?.....how were you saved?

I don’t understand your point.....how else would I know I was born again....God testified to my spirit that I am his child....I am surprised you don’t understand that...

That is how I know I am born again...

Don't you just hate that 5 minute edit rule. When you get my age, 71, and had 7 strokes so now I am very slow typer, so it gets DOUBLY hard, to beat that 5 minute rule. I type a post, Proof read, then Post it, only to find I read what I thought I TYPED, and found the error, but by that time 5 or 6 minutes have gone by. God is the author of poetic Justice, and some day they to will get OLD like me and find the 5 minute rule is discriminating for getting old.

Yeah I proofread like 2 times and post it, and then find more typos or grammar errors. Oh well. Lest we start thinking we're too perfect. lol