"Not by works" - false!

In @Judges1318 false dogma it is not the work of Jesus that saves.... but rather the continual belief/work of the person that saves.

Well,I am sorry only Jesus can save...and all the glory goes to him......we do not earn our salvation.

@jackrosie ,

You will not learn anything from this person about what I believe.
She is very antagonistic towards me (and others) and for some reason refuses to understand, let alone agree with, what she is resisting.

Only your false "keep believing by my own effort loose salvation" dogma.

Yup. Okey-dokey buddy.

Wow, I admire your humility and politeness.

@jackrosie
To this point I have found Judges to be fair, reasonable, polite and informative.
Aside: I am not saying I agree with him on everything

I am learning a lot from what you post.....I don’t agree with it all.

But I find your manners impeccable.....

I agree....

When we look to self....it all goes wrong...like my ego..it keeps getting in the way.

I like this thread because it is polite and civil.

No one listens when “WE” start to rant and rave...

The testimony of the Spirit instilling faith in the hearts of men so they may trust in Jesus and be saved is certainly an example of prevenient grace.

"6 ...it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." - 1 John 5:6,10

Man can't and won't reach out to God. God comes to man through the voice of the Spirit. All it takes is a visitation of the Spirit to enable man to see the truth about the gospel. As we see above, some accept his testimony, while others (most) reject his testimony, in effect calling God a liar. The ability to overcome our depravity and accept the gospel comes through a visitation of the Spirit.

Here's the Bible definition of faith:

"1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." - Hebrews 11:1

Through a visitation of the Spirit, an unregenerate person is able to see that which he can't see. Faith is the proof, or evidence that what he can't see is actually true, and so he can make a decision either way as to whether he wants to accept what he can now see, or reject it and go back to his blinded, depraved mind.

No, I would leave it as 'faith'.
Faith (the ability to see that which you can't see really is true) would certainly be an example of God's prevenient grace.

Aside: "prevenient grace" is not found in the Bible IMO, though proponents would site John 1:9, Titus 2:11, John 12:32, Romans 2:4, 1 Tim. 2:4
[/quote]
I don't have time to look those up right now, but here is God's prevenient grace in the Bible:

"This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." - Hebrews 2:3-4

Some responded to the testimony of the Spirit, while some (most) did not. God proved to them the reality of the gospel, yet some like the Pharisees turned away in willful unbelief, blaspheming the Spirit (calling him a lying working of miracles) and being eternally condemned as a result. Like all men, because God testified to them, they are without excuse.

The testimony of signs and wonders of the Spirit is a profound example of prevenient grace--'divine grace given before a man chooses Christ'. This grace is given so men can make an informed decision to accept Jesus as Messiah. The danger being, if a man rejects the evidence and proof of Jesus' Sonship, they are rightfully and justly condemned because they no longer have any excuse to not believe. God is just. It is important that those who he condemns be condemned justly and fairly. That justice does not exist in Calvinism.

That's a testimony to the work of God.
I haven't always been this way.

And all of you (apart from the obvious exceptions) have been absolutely great.
Thank you for this pleasant experience of sharing our theological journeys in Christ.

Man can't and won't reach out to God. God comes to man through the voice of the Spirit. All it takes is a visitation of the Spirit to enable man to see the truth about the gospel. As we see above, some accept his testimony, while others (most) reject his testimony, in effect calling God a liar. The ability to overcome our depravity and accept the gospel comes through a visitation of the Spirit.


Hi Judges...I like to be civil when discussing...unfortunately my ego gets in the way sometimes.

Can you help me in understanding this....I had to break your post down....because I can only deal with one question at a time.

Firstly have I read this correctly..

You say man can’t and won’t reach out to God?

God came to me by testifying to my spirit that he was God...I cried out to Jesus .....as he was coming into my body...then my spirit...my spirit recognised the Holy Spirit straight away...

How can the Lord come to a person by his voice.....he can’t...The Lord testifies to our spirit that we are his child.

Without God making the supernatural evident to a person in their inner being, man won't see or care about the unseen.
It isn't until the Holy Spirit starts speaking to a man's heart that he will consider the things of the gospel.
Everything starts with a conviction from the Holy Spirit.

That is exactly what 1 John 5 is talking about.
The testimony of God comes first.
Then a decision to either retain that testimony in you and be saved, or reject it and be lost.

That was the Holy Spirit back when he testified to your spirit that he was God.
It is the Holy Spirit who testifies - 1 John 5:6.

Why can't the Spirit speak to a person's heart?

Yes, AFTER you receive him as savior.
You only have God's confirmation that you are his child after you become his child.

Ok,I see what you mean now..yes God speaks to a believers heart...I misunderstood....thank you.

And to the unbeliever's heart.
That's the call of God.
It's the testimony of the Holy Spirit sent out into all the world.
Some accept it and are saved. Most reject it and are lost.

On another note....God didn’t start speaking to my heart.....it was completely unexpected.....long story.....after sobbing and talking to myself....I cried out to Jesus.....that is when I received the Holy Spirit into my heart..

So God didn’t start speaking to my heart....I just cried out to Jesus.....He heard and in he came...

The Lord comes to us all differently doesn’t he?

My saving was so unexpected it blew my mind.....it truly was amazing....I’m still in Awe of how the Lord saved me.

But I do understand what you are saying.

The biblical definition as the same as found in the dictionary. I am content to use the words, "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Your state that faith is something God gives up. If this be true, and I believe it is true, the it follows that everyone given this faith will have "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Yet, according to you, this is not the consequence of the faith God gives people. You contradict the definition. These people, according to you, do NOT have a conviction of things not seen. Rather, they have the ability to decide whether or not they with have faith (the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.) A minor, but important technicality. We will have to agree to disagree on the application of our mutually agreed to definition of FAITH. (aside: this is my best interpretation of your statement and may not be accurate)

Re: That justice does not exist in Calvinism.
Definition of Justice: conformity to this principle or ideal
Justice would require all men go to hell. I think we both agree to that.
The differentiation between us would be how we view God administers MERCY.
Mercy– When goodness confers happiness without merit, it is grace; when it bestows happiness against merit, it is mercy.

You would say IMO that God has to extend mercy to everyone without exception to show mercy 'fairly'. Thus he instills FAITH (actually, it is not FAITH but the ability to chose to believe or not, most call this "prevenient grace"). The more righteous persons are saved by believing. Issues: 1) "prevenient grace" not found in the Bible (though some disagree) 2) Not everyone hears the gospel so they are not extended this mercy as faith cometh by hearing. 3) It requires WORK (mental activity of person to achieve a goal) (granted, you say our faith is not a WORK because Paul says so. I agree that it is not a work because God gives us faith, you don't have a reason except Paul said so. Paul says so because GOD does the work)

I say God chooses some for salvation. Those he chooses have NO MERIT; they are so depraved they cannot believe on their own(No one seeks God). God give them FAITH and this FAITH never subsides.

Hi Fred.....what do you mean when you say God chooses some for salvation...Those he chooses have NO MERIT,they are so depraved they cannot believe on their own,(No one seeks God)....God give them FAITH and this FAITH never subsides?

It does kind of make sense to me.....are you talking about a simpleton someone who is open and not complicated?

I don’t mean a simpleton as in being thick....someone of simple mind not complicated and heart do you mean that?
I have just looked simpleton up....the definition is idiot.....

It’s the depraved word I am trying to understand.

Or did you mean deprived,Fred?