"Not by works" - false!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,701
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,701
jackrosie said:
I can assure I have had weeks where I have done no good works...
Click to expand...
Why not, if it is as you say that good works are automatic?
Not being snarky. Honest question.


jackrosie said:
...because of one thing or another...I am still saved....I will never lose my salvation.
Click to expand...
You are saved in the deepest of struggles with sin.
It's when you stop believing and trusting in Christ that you lose your salvation.
But no believer's honest struggle with sin can ever separate them from the salvation that they have in the Christ they cling to.
You'll have to go back to willful unbelief to lose that.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,702
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,702
gb9 said:
you belong to Him if you believe, not if you do good things.
Click to expand...
Your good life shows that you belong to him.
Not having a characteristically good life shows you do not belong to him.
That has NOTHING to do with earning your place in Christ through good works.
Good works show if you have a place in Christ. They do not make you have a place in Christ.


gb9 said:
i could spend 8 hours feeding the hungry, helping poor people, handing out Bibles, then go home and watch porn.

will these good works save me??

no, they won't.
Click to expand...
Even if you didn't watch porn your good works can't save you.
Good works are the evidence of salvation, not the procurer of salvation.

Maybe you'll understand this better if you think of it in terms of the fruit of the Spirit.
People who don't live lives representative of the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control...) show they do not have the Holy Spirit inside of them to produce that fruit.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,703
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,703
eternally-gratefull said:
He uses “continue in faith” as a requirement. Which in itself is works.
Click to expand...
If continuing in faith is works, then you were saved by works because the faith you are to continue in is the exact same faith by which you were saved.

The Bible is crystal clear about this: You have to continue to believe all the way to the very end to be saved when Jesus comes back. Your life shows if you're doing that.
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

Banned
#1,704
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,275
113
#1,704
Judges1318 said:
I wish it were true that good works just automatically happen, but it's just not that way. At least not all of the time.
Sometimes every fiber of your being is telling you to do something wrong and you have to purposely not do it. There is nothing automatic about it.
The Bible talks about US putting the flesh to death. It's a choice. But a choice that we are now free to make as we avail ourselves of the power of God's love to overcome temptation. And that's often way easier to say than do.
Click to expand...

It’s the Holy Spirit
Judges1318 said:
Why not, if it is as you say that good works are automatic?
Not being snarky. Honest question.



You are saved in the deepest of struggles with sin.
It's when you stop believing and trusting in Christ that you lose your salvation.
But no believer's honest struggle with sin can ever separate them from the salvation that they have in the Christ they cling to.
You'll have to go back to willful unbelief to lose that.
Click to expand...

Hi Judges....I have no problem you challenging me over my faith....and what I believe...because you are civil...don’t worry about upsetting me...because you won’t.....say what ever you like because I know it won’t be toxic.

I have to go out now...so will be back later to discuss further..
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,705
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,705
mailmandan said:
I was thinking the same thing. Do we have a prophet on our hands? :sneaky:
Click to expand...
No, actually, I just think he reads his Bible:

"33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door." - Matthew 24:33

.
 
J

JBTN

Active member
#1,706
Feb 11, 2020
211
74
28
#1,706
Judges1318 said:
We are.
The word 'conviction' is used in the NASB and YLT translations, for example.

"1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." - Hebrews 11:1 NASB

.
Click to expand...
I still don’t understand.

I think your referred to faith as the “gracious gift of knowing”.

How can I know something, but not believe it?

Also,

If faith as defined above in Hebrews 11:1 is both the assurance and the conviction, then I would submit that to have the conviction requires one to believe. If your conviction is that something is true then you believe it. So faith as defined in the Bible and belief are interlocked. I don’t understand how his could be otherwise.
 
Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

Banned
#1,707
May 22, 2020
403
127
43
#1,707
Judges1318 said:
Yes, God does give us faith. That is not the point in contention.
What he does not give us is the believing/trusting that we do in response to the confidence of faith God gives. That comes from you.
Click to expand...
Well, you have a different definition of FAITH than everyone else, so it is difficult to communicate on the subject.
Proof of the above statement:
Your definition: "What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe".
Dictionary Definition: complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Citing the dictionary as an authority on the meanings of words should be beyond contention. I don't know where to go from here.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,709
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,709
JBTN said:
I think your referred to faith as the “gracious gift of knowing”.

How can I know something, but not believe it?
Click to expand...
I appreciate the argument. It's a good one. (I actually wondered when someone would articulate it as you have.)

I think the confusion comes from Christians not remembering that in the gospel 'believing' implies 'trusting', not just being aware and agreeing that something is true. We are saved, not because we know and agree that something is true, but because we have put our trust in what God has shown us to be true.

That's why I make the distinction between 'faith'--simply knowing that the gospel really is true--and 'believing'--actually putting your trust in what God has shown you to be true.

See, every unbeliever whom God has called knows the gospel really is true, because the Holy Spirit has testified to them that it really is true. But they reject the faith that God is providing them to believe and trust in the gospel and be saved.

"6 ...it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
9 ...God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." - 1 John 5:6,9,10

See? The BELIEVER is the one who ACCEPTS the truthful testimony of the Spirit. While the unbeliever rejects it. It's not that the unbeliever does not know the Spirit is speaking the truth and, therefore, can't trust in what is shown him, but rather he has chosen to not believe what the Spirit of truth has shown him to be true.
 
Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

Banned
#1,710
May 22, 2020
403
127
43
#1,710
JBTN said:
I still don’t understand.
Click to expand...
Hopefully, I will save you some time ... @Judges1318 's definition of faith is unique. It is the following:
"What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe".

Aside: Others call this 'prevenient grace'.

So, when you communicate with him in regards to FAITH it will be difficult as you will probably be talking about 2 different things.

Aside2: Judges will define BELIEF the same as we define FAITH.
Judges can correct me if I have misrepresented his definition.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,713
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,713
Fastfredy0 said:
Hopefully, I will save you some time ... @Judges1318 's definition of faith is unique. It is the following:
"What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe".
Click to expand...
The Bible itself says faith is the EVIDENCE that what you can't see is the truth.
Nobody ever got saved by simply having the evidence that the gospel is true.
You get saved by RESPONDING WITH TRUST to the evidence that the gospel really is true.

JBTN is raising the argument that 'faith' includes the response of trusting. That it is, both, knowing and trusting in what you know. I think a look at faith in regard to gifts will show that to not be the case. Faith is 'confidence'. Believing is trusting in accordance with the confidence that you have received from God to do that trusting.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#1,714
#1,714
Judges1318 said:
I appreciate the argument. It's a good one. (I actually wondered when someone would articulate it as you have.)

I think the confusion comes from Christians not remembering that in the gospel 'believing' implies 'trusting', not just being aware and agreeing that something is true. We are saved, not because we know and agree that something is true, but because we have put our trust in what God has shown us to be true.

That's why I make the distinction between 'faith'--simply knowing that the gospel really is true--and 'believing'--actually putting your trust in what God has shown you to be true.
Click to expand...
And this is why people get so frustrated with you and continue to call you out for your bearing false witness

You have been told so many times by so many people who use the defenition of fgaith as a trust and assurance. and not the licentious view of mental ascent.. Yet you continue to insist otherwise.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,715
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,715
eternally-gratefull said:
And this is why people get so frustrated with you and continue to call you out for your bearing false witness

You have been told so many times by so many people who use the defenition of fgaith as a trust and assurance. and not the licentious view of mental ascent.. Yet you continue to insist otherwise.
Click to expand...
Lol, how ironic. You're actually the one bearing false witness. :LOL:
I've told you people over and over and over again that you keep misunderstanding and twisting my argument. 11th even said she is purposely not understanding my argument.
 
Just_Jo

Just_Jo

Well-known member
#1,717
May 29, 2020
389
258
63
#1,717
The most DAMNABLE lie was made by the serpent in the Garden of Eden.
From this has spawned heresy that will take people to hell.

Gen.3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman,ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day thou shalt eat thereof,then your eyes will be opened,and ye shall be as gods,knowing good and evil.

He convinces people that's not REALLY what God means.
This lie has been stated on cc.

If God's word is infallable and the authority of His being,He has SAID what He means and means what He has SAID!

Ez.18:4-18...........: the soul that SINNETH,it SHALL DIE.
Not lose rewards nor receive a slap on the wrist but DIE!

Titus3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted,and SINNETH,being condemned of himself.

Subvert KJ dict. Overthrown ,overturned,entirely destroyed.
Subvert KJ dict. To corrupt, to pervert the mind and turn it from the truth.
I've recently seen a member say repentance is a change in the mind....lol!

1 Jn.5:18 We know that whatsoever is BORN OF GOD sinneth not,but he that is begotten of God KEEPTH (action of believer) himself,and that wicked one toucheth him not
Rms.6:23 For the WAGES of sin is DEATH;but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our LORD.

Wage KJ dict.- to venture,to make,to begin
" - labour for pay,reward or fruit.

We must be sure our walk is grounded in the word of God,not doctrines and Creed's of men!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#1,719
#1,719
Just_Jo said:
The most DAMNABLE lie was made by the serpent in the Garden of Eden.
From this has spawned heresy that will take people to hell.

Gen.3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman,ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day thou shalt eat thereof,then your eyes will be opened,and ye shall be as gods,knowing good and evil.

He convinces people that's not REALLY what God means.
This lie has been stated on cc.

If God's word is infallable and the authority of His being,He has SAID what He means and means what He has SAID!

Ez.18:4-18...........: the soul that SINNETH,it SHALL DIE.
Not lose rewards nor receive a slap on the wrist but DIE!

Titus3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted,and SINNETH,being condemned of himself.

Subvert KJ dict. Overthrown ,overturned,entirely destroyed.
Subvert KJ dict. To corrupt, to pervert the mind and turn it from the truth.
I've recently seen a member say repentance is a change in the mind....lol!

1 Jn.5:18 We know that whatsoever is BORN OF GOD sinneth not,but he that is begotten of God KEEPTH (action of believer) himself,and that wicked one toucheth him not
Rms.6:23 For the WAGES of sin is DEATH;but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our LORD.

Wage KJ dict.- to venture,to make,to begin
" - labour for pay,reward or fruit.

We must be sure our walk is grounded in the word of God,not doctrines and Creed's of men!
Click to expand...
John also says whoever sins has never seen god

So using this verse Who has ever known God ?
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,720
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,720
Fastfredy0 said:
Aside: Others call this 'prevenient grace'.
Click to expand...
You do not agree that the miracles Jesus did were examples of prevenient grace--an expression of God's love and grace given to a person before they trust in the gospel?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.