TRuth Vs. Beliefs: Would you Read a Book Whose Back Cover Said This:

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
18
#61
...and that is bs.
Believing in Jesus and placing him as Lord God and savior is not being lost.

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

No one who believes themselves to b e Christian believes they fall short of this passage. Yet, from Jesus analogy of the narrow "to groan" path verses the wide thoroughfare, by far the vast majority of the people in this world who believe Jesus is their Lord, God and Savior, and are living in accordance with their beliefs are still headed for hell. His words, not mine.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
18
#62
Truth is connected to Jesus.

Rethink your doctrine.

It is ironic how you preach truth as the root. And miss truth.
Truth is Jesus, Jesus is the word. Jesus is the truth. Miss the truth and you missed Jesus regardless of your beliefs or your zeal in accordance with them.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
18
#63
Amen to that... " 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
Prettuy much every belief group that believes themselves to be Christians do.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#64
The Muslims believe in Jesus, the Mormons believe in Jesus, The Jehovah's Witnesses believe in Jesus, the Roman Catholics believe in Jesus ... most of the world believes in Jesus, as an Atheist I believed in Jesus ...and everyone believes their beliefs about Him are correct.
If we miss the truth, did we find Jesus?
No they dont
They believe all kinds of things about him.
Abstract chatter.

The jailer in acts most likely "believed in Jesus" (using your oversimplified wording)
But what was his road to salvation ?
"Belive on Jesus"
Belief was his salvation.

A "beliver" is a Christian.

Factor that in.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#66
KIf you don't have the truth, all the belief in the world, accompanied by all the zeal anyone can possibly have in the light of their beliefs, does not save.
Paul got truth later
So did everybody
Salvation is Jesus rebirthing man.
Not a truth test or some revelatory doctrine preceding salvation.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#67
Prettuy much every belief group that believes themselves to be Christians do.
The point is, I dont need that box where you pidgeon hole truth vs belief ,in that you magnify truth outside of its root.
Truth is Jesus, Jesus is the word. Jesus is the truth. Miss the truth and you missed Jesus regardless of your beliefs or your zeal in accordance with them.
Now you are getting close.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#69
""I am as prone to error as the people in the belief groups I hold to as most deceived. I am not proud and arrogant enough to believe that I will arrive at any beliefs that will not need at least minor tweaking before I die. Some may need major revision. I have been wrong before and pulled people from Christianity into Atheism ... sincerely, knowing I was right, having amassed everything I needed to persuade dozens of Christians their beliefs were lies.""

Here's the deal.

What group are you associated with?

I will be surprised if you answered.

I have asked so many members here that consider themselves the next thing to God almighty in their revelation and awesomeness.

Only 1 out of 10 answered me.

No links of groups. They just have their own little nitch.

But prove me wrong and say a denomination or give me a link to like minded "believers"
(Not sure if you want to be called a believer)
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
18
#70
No they dont
They believe all kinds of things about him.
Abstract chatter.

The jailer in acts most likely "believed in Jesus" (using your oversimplified wording)
But what was his road to salvation ?
"Belive on Jesus"
Belief was his salvation.

A "beliver" is a Christian.

Factor that in.
The Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet of God. Ask them. The point is this. Miss the truth and it doesn't matter what you believe.m Only belief in the truth saves. Belief in a lie, no matter how vehemently it is held to never saves. THose in Mat. 7 believe He is their Lord, God and Savior and are heading for hell. THey missed the truth. THey KNEW they had the truth, believed the truth taught the truth ... and what they had zeal for Jesus and doing what they "believed" was the will of the Father. But they missed it. MANY of those who believe He is their Lord, God and Savior won't make it. FEW, literally to groan, squeeze through losing skin, that few, of those who believe He is Lord, are going to squeak through. That's the context of the many and few in Mat. 7.

Mormons believe in Jesus, Jehovah's Witnesses believe in Jesus, Roman Catholics believe in Jesus , Baptists believe in Jesus, .... dozens and dozens of different belief groups believe in Jesus. All of them believing with all their heart, mind, soul and strength that they have the truth. That's the point. What so you habitually do to believe lies are truth (One Methodology) and what do you have to habitually do differently if you truly love truth(Jesus) and are willing to give up any, or all of your current beliefs to get to it.

If you KNOW you already have truth, like every belief group in the world, then the discussion is mute. You will die with your beliefs intact.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#71
“Only Belief in the Truth Saves”

“Only Belief in the Truth Results in Correct Doctrines, Words and Actions”

“More than 90% of the People on the Planet Hate Truth and only Seek to Justify What they Want to Believe AS Truth and for these people, regardless of their beliefs, For Them:

Their Beliefs = Truth

And anyone who believes otherwise is an enemy, and will see what they say trampled underfoot.”


This Book Does 2 Things:

  • This Book explains the one singular “Methodology” all people use to hold fast to anything they “want to believe” “as” truth.

  • This Book explains what is necessary to cut through all of the lies to get to truth … eventually.

  • Belief groups do not exist to get anyone “to” truth. They exist to teach, promote, defend, evangelize … their beliefs “as” truth.”

  • “Everyone loves either the truth or their beliefs. That which you love least is always forced to conform to that which you love most.”

  • “The Methodology you habitually use proves which you love.”

  • If you love what you believe, if you are a fan of ANY “Belief Group”, avoid this book.

  • Habitual applying of the material taught in this book destroys erroneous beliefs.
  • If you are willing to pay ANY price to get “to” truth, and avoid believing lies, this book is for you.
No. It promises to be a rant. A poorly written rant. The bullet item “Belief groups do not exist to get anyone “to” truth. They exist to teach, promote, defend, evangelize … their beliefs “as” truth.” would especially turn me off. That would suggest a anti organized church rant.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,610
575
113
#72
For me if this was said right up front "More than 90% of the People on the Planet Hate Truth and only Seek to Justify What they Want to Believe AS Truth and for these people, regardless of their beliefs, For Them"

Over 7 billion people on the earth and to then say 90% hate truth? Hmm
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
18
#73
For me if this was said right up front "More than 90% of the People on the Planet Hate Truth and only Seek to Justify What they Want to Believe AS Truth and for these people, regardless of their beliefs, For Them"

Over 7 billion people on the earth and to then say 90% hate truth? Hmm

People love what they believe to be truth. Not truth. That's why God gives them what they want. proof that their beliefs are truth and everything opposing is false. Ask any group why they believe what they do. Because to their satisfaction they have proved their beliefs are truth and everything else is false. God hardens every person who loves their beliefs into believing lies as truth and truth to be lies ... because that's exactly what they want. 2Th. 2:10-15.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#74
People love what they believe to be truth. Not truth. That's why God gives them what they want. proof that their beliefs are truth and everything opposing is false. Ask any group why they believe what they do. Because to their satisfaction they have proved their beliefs are truth and everything else is false. God hardens every person who loves their beliefs into believing lies as truth and truth to be lies ... because that's exactly what they want. 2Th. 2:10-15.
Yes there is an idolatry of false interpretations that God shows to people through sound hermeneutics and they hold on to the false interpretation not because they really believe it is true but because it will cost them something to change their minds. For example a Baptist pastor might come to the conclusion through careful study of the scriptures that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the gift of tongues is biblical and yet they will not tell anyone because they do not want to get kicked out of their denomination. This is idolatry because they are loving the praise of men more than the praise of God.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
18
#75
Yes there is an idolatry of false interpretations that God shows to people through sound hermeneutics and they hold on to the false interpretation not because they really believe it is true but because it will cost them something to change their minds. For example a Baptist pastor might come to the conclusion through careful study of the scriptures that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the gift of tongues is biblical and yet they will not tell anyone because they do not want to get kicked out of their denomination. This is idolatry because they are loving the praise of men more than the praise of God.
This is true. On the other hand a Charismatic pastor may come to the conclusion that the gifts have ceased, and that those practicing them are receiving a deluding influence from God to believe that they are true Christians because they love what they believe, and the signs and wonders they appear to have more than they love truth.

Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many works of power?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

The point is, if you do not love truth more than EVERYTHING else, every belief, every sign. every wonder, .... then you get whatever you need to believe that you are a true Christian... right with God, or, if you don't believe in a God, merely that your beliefs are fact.

“The Door to Truth Only Opens from the Inside.”

“Closed minds can never be opened from the outside.”

“Getting to the truth is not something others can do “for” you.”

“As a habit and way of life you can either prove your beliefs true and hold fast to them, or you continuously keep on proving all things, over and over again, as a habit and way of life, and alter your beliefs to fit what is true/good. Pick One.

"The Methodology you habitually use, for and by yourself, proves what you really love: The truth or your beliefs.”

“If you gather what you can “use” to “prove your beliefs” true and what you can “use” to prove all opposing beliefs false, and then interpret everything in the light of your beliefs, there is no way to get from lies to truth. All you can do is harden yourself into what you “want to believe” “as” truth.”

“That which you love least will always be made to conform to that which you love most.

You can love truth, or you can love your beliefs. Pick one. Everybody does.”

“No one can have a relationship with your spouse, kids … for you. No one can have a relationship with the Truth “for” you. Either you will habitually keep on doing what it takes to get it for yourself, and by yourself, or it won’t get done.”

“Belief groups do not exist to get anyone “to” the truth. They exist to teach, promote, defend, evangelize … the groups beliefs “as” “truth”. You can’t get “to” truth from there.”

“The Biggest obstacle to getting “to” the truth is the firm belief that you already have it.”

“If your eyes and ears are closed to considering any other view, everything anyone shares to the contrary becomes meaningless contention.”

(Mikeisms: Note: I’m Mike)​
 

Funkus

Active member
May 20, 2020
199
71
28
#76
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

No one who believes themselves to b e Christian believes they fall short of this passage. Yet, from Jesus analogy of the narrow "to groan" path verses the wide thoroughfare, by far the vast majority of the people in this world who believe Jesus is their Lord, God and Savior, and are living in accordance with their beliefs are still headed for hell. His words, not mine.
how come you don't seem worried by that? what puts you in the right group :)
for me i think it is meant to keep us on our toes, ie to not be complacent or end up doing evil things because Jesus knew that his followers could and would fall into this, and from history we know he was right

point two - the unforgivable sin is a similar teaching i believe is misunderstood. most people miss the result of this should be discernment practiced as a high priority item. how many churches flunk even basic discernment? many do - even though in the strongest possible terms Jesus says don't get the Holy Spirit wrong at any cost!

The point I am making is even with the strongest worded statements people many times still do not listen! Jesus knew this, which is why he made strong statements to try to get their attention. I don't believe these statements were meant to be taken as literally as you take them but were warnings to be careful

The narrow path is so true to how things are in the world

Thus when Jesus said 'hate your father and mother', again not to be taken completely literally since ultimately God is Love.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#77
many hold on to the 'false', simply because they were 'taught/brought' to believe a lie -
at least I was, and my husband, in our old, southern, baptist, church...
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#78
many hold on to the 'false', simply because they were 'taught/brought' to believe a lie -
at least I was, and my husband, in our old, southern, baptist, church...
What was it that you discovered was not the correct biblical interpretation of scripture?
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,530
113
77
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#79
What was it that you discovered was not the correct biblical interpretation of scripture?
Let me answer oldthennew. Don't get me started on erroneous biblical interpretation, I could write a book! Wait! I did. A couple of books, in fact. Go to my profile, and my website is listed, to get your copies.
 

EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
244
26
18
#80
how come you don't seem worried by that? what puts you in the right group :)
for me i think it is meant to keep us on our toes, ie to not be complacent or end up doing evil things because Jesus knew that his followers could and would fall into this, and from history we know he was right
Here's the thing. Jesus says that if you ever STOP doing everything in your power to get to truth and everything in your power to avoid what everyone else does to hold fast to what they "want to believe" "as" truth, then you are in the lost group in spite of your beliefs to the contrary. What does this mean, I quite well "could be" in that group and I have missed what I need to believe up till now.

Here's an example: Say you convert from Atheism to Roman Catholicism and you believe that salvation comes from following the rules of the Roman Catholic church, eating the literal body and blood of Christ, going to confession ... but then you become a Jehovah's Witness because you see more truth there and you believe those things, but you keep on studying and become Mormon, ... can you stop seeking, proving all things over and over again, and always altering your beliefs to hold fast to what is true yet? What happens if you do?

point two - the unforgivable sin is a similar teaching i believe is misunderstood. most people miss the result of this should be discernment practiced as a high priority item. how many churches flunk even basic discernment? many do - even though in the strongest possible terms Jesus says don't get the Holy Spirit wrong at any cost!
The context of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is being in the physical presence of Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, as He is literally doing the will of the Father(If you have seen Me you have seen Him), doing powerful works through the Holy SPirit (Jesus "emptied"/retained nothing, and became man), and attributing the Triune work of God to Satan. There is a reason you never see it mentioned in any other context. It can only happen in that context.

The point I am making is even with the strongest worded statements people many times still do not listen! Jesus knew this, which is why he made strong statements to try to get their attention. I don't believe these statements were meant to be taken as literally as you take them but were warnings to be careful
Ok ... Jesus lied to make a point.

The narrow path is so true to how things are in the world

Thus when Jesus said 'hate your father and mother', again not to be taken completely literally since ultimately God is Love.
From the context, if you care more for anyone else than you do for God, you don't know Him. You aren't His. From the context, your love for the closest person in your life should be so little, IN COMPARISON TO YOUR LOVE FOR GOD, that it looks like hate by comparison. If we don't get it, and if it isn't true of us, then we fail that test. There are about 300 passages, about 900 verses in the N.T. alone where God tells us the difference between those who believe they are right with God, and those who are right with God.

The Mormons select out 5-7% of those verses and interpret them in the light of their beliefs, the Jehovah's Witnesses a different 5%, Baptists another 5% ... the point being, where the beliefs overlap they use the same verses. Where the beliefs diverge, different verses are picked to prove their beliefs true and opposing beliefs false. If you just want to believe you are right with God, then anything that doesn't seem to fit with your beliefs becomes figurative language meant to teach us a lesson, but it doesn't apply to us and our belief group. What you take figuratively others take literally and vice versa.

My question is this: But what if Mat. 7 is literal?