Eternal Security - Most dangerous words ever preached: Once saved, always saved.

Once saved always saved is a blatant LIE! There are at least 7 verses in the Bible that gainsay this statement.
And there is a good video on YouTube about this topic.

I agree with you Chester

YES, I have convictions. Are you not in the same way pushing you dogma? Do you not obviously have convictions? If one is not convicted of a the Truth, that one has not Christ.

Note this Church reference:
(Rev 3:15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
(Rev 3:16) So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

This kind of theology is what happens, when you leave Salvation in the hands of men. This dude in the video knows nothing of spiritual discernment. It is pure head knowledge. It would take to long to refute each one of these points and would be foolish. Foolishness deserves no answer.

The post was for all that can receive it, not just you. Your not that important. You also did not read my post, I dealt with John 3:16 as part of my post #660. Not that I think it will change anything about what you profess.

First: Thank you for a level headed and thought out response. Your response is something that deserves an equal response and I hope in the same spirit that you gave yours.

I cannot agree with your interpretation of these two verses because you change the meaning of our Lord's words. You added in, by way of interpretation, the word "effectual". This I understand, you must do, to support your position. I do not, however, need to, to support mine. I will be the first to admit, that it is not easy to reconcile all of the word of God. We must reconcile verses such as these, with verses that seem to mean ALL, every one of mankind. No easy task. BUT, we should not impose our prejudices, subjective ideas or traditions on to our interpretations. Again, no easy task. I thank my God everyday, that when I began my conversion experience, that I had no formal Church/Assembly training. Therefore, I was not caught up in traditional teachings. No baggage to have to leave behind. Only after the Holy Spirit had helped lead me into many great doctrinal truths did I seek an assembly to worship in. But enough about me.

Your point goes to the first part of my question, "Did Jesus Christ die for everyone but fail to bring everyone in to the Ark of Salvation...."? One must be very careful here, are we make the blood of Christ useless and we do damage to the Sovereignty of God, over His creation. I cannot agree with the idea of His blood being made "effectual" through anything man can or cannot do. Jesus Christ's blood is always effectual.

I can tell, you know enough about Scripture, to know that nothing that God does returns to Him VOID, all that He pleases to do, He does. I do not have to quote Scripture here, you know this. Therefore, every single drop of Jesus' blood will accomplish what it was spilled for. Does this make sense? To believe otherwise, means God failed in His "Eternal Decree" Your view, would indirectly, if not directly, take away the security of the believer.

Knowing, that you object to the idea of election and that man cannot "will" himself into Christ, then what about these verses of Scripture:

(John 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(John 1:13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Does this verse not clearly teach, that to be Born Again, of John 3, that it is not out of these 3 things: 1) The seed of the flesh, 2) the will of a man, 3) the will or by the hands of another man? BUT OF ( ek in the greek, "out from", the accusative of source) God.

And what about the word "ELECT" in Scripture:

Mat 24:22-24) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
(Luke 18:7) And shall not God avenge his elect, that cry to him day and night, and yet he is longsuffering over them?
(Rom 8:33) Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;
Col 3:12) Put on therefore, as God's elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;
(2Ti 2:10) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
(1Pe 2:4) unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God's elect, precious,

All quotations given, from the ASB Bible or KJV. IN some verses given on elect, the same greek word could be translated "chosen", in other versions.

Again, THANK YOU, for your response, I look forward to your reply. Take care.

Okay. Let's address this first: "I cannot agree with the idea of His blood being made "effectual" through anything man can or cannot do."

Now in order to address it we must go to the very words of Christ Himself as recorded in John 3:14-18, which is a critical passage, and which is connected the truth that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins":

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Therefore we need to ask ourselves some key questions regarding these verses:

v 14 -- Was the Brazen Serpent in the wilderness for ALL who had been bitten by those venomous serpents? AND THE ANSWER IS "YES".

v 14 -- Did Christ make that Brazen Serpent a type of Himself on the cross, where He was literally made SIN for us, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him? ABSOLUTELY

v 14 -- Is the venom of sin and death present in every human being because of Adam? ABSOLUTELY

v 14 -- When the Son of Man was lifted up, did Christ shed His blood on the cross as the Lamb of God "which taketh away the sin of the world" (meaning all mankind)? ABSOLUTELY [Note: Calvin had to concur that "the world" means all humanity in John 1:29]

v. 15 -- Does this verse imply that the finished work on the cross is for ALL humanity, and that the gift of eternal life is offered to all? ABSOLUTELY

v 16 -- In this verse does the word "world" means all humanity -- the human race? ABSOLUTELY. [Even John Calvin could not escape that conclusion in his commentary on this verse (but failed to apply it in his theology)].

v 16 -- Does "whosoever believeth in Him" mean anyone and everyone, therefore it means that Christ shed His blood for all mankind? ABSOLUTELY

v 16 -- Is the free gift of eternal life offered to anyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ? ABSOLUTELY

v 17 -- Does this verse plainly mean that God will have ALL men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth? ABSOLUTELY

v 18 -- Does this verse teach that one of the conditions for salvation is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? ABSOLUTELY

v 18 -- Does this verse mean that the sinner must put his absolute faith and trust in Christ and His finished work in order to be saved? ABSOLUTELY

v 18 -- Did Christ thereforeteach that a man must do something in response to the Gospel message? ABSOLUTELY

So, as you can see, this passage fully addresses you objections and also refutes your position on Limited Atonement. And since these are the words of Christ, you must now repudiate your theology (which is Calvin's theology).

Yup thats what its a reference to! You can read about it in the cross references in MOST bibles.

Here it is:


Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

WARNING TO ALL READERS: The YouTube channel GyO linked is NOT CHRISTIAN. It is an ADVENTIST channel which promotes MANY false doctrines.

One of the most ridicilous ones is that sunday worship will be the mark of the beast and sunday services are mandatory. The adventists arent living in reality where people are attending LESS not more, and now with Corona going around its even less likely to ever come to pass.
They believe in WORKS SALVATION, soul sleep, no hell, ALL TYPES of unbiblical JUNK.

Flee from it! If you must: take a look at the teachings and compare them with the New Testament, IT DONT ADD UP. Now Ellen WHite is a whole nother can of worms, all the false visions and ODD behavior during these TRANCES. Just GARBAGE from start to finish. Failed prediction of Jesus returning (kinda like the JWs) in the 1800s and to get away from it being a false prophecy THEY INVENTED a doctrine called "Investigative judgment"......... can you believe the dishonesty of these people?

Just a heads up to anyone who considers clicking on the video! Remember: cults use Christian lingo and may say some great things to LURE IN genuine Christians or just unbelievers, but the cults are NOT Christian!

No, it really refutes nothing, as to my position.

With all due respect, You can't just take 5 verses of Scripture and give to them your personal interpretation and call this DOCTRINE or build a Salvation argument upon them and them alone. But, okay, let's take a run at these points:

v 14 -- Was the Brazen Serpent in the wilderness for ALL who had been bitten by those venomous serpents? AND THE ANSWER IS "YES".
You left out the important part, that the person had to look upon the Brazen Serpent. Therefore, had to see it as a saving symbol or type.

(Num 21:9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the standard: and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived. (This represents by looking, that the individual has faith but does not answer where the origin of this faith came from.)

v 14 -- Did Christ make that Brazen Serpent a type of Himself on the cross, where He was literally made SIN for us, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him? ABSOLUTELY (AGREE)
v 14 -- Is the venom of sin and death present in every human being because of Adam? ABSOLUTELY (AGREE)
v 14 -- When the Son of Man was lifted up, did Christ shed His blood on the cross as the Lamb of God "which taketh away the sin of the world" (meaning all mankind)? ABSOLUTELY [Note: Calvin had to concur that "the world" means all humanity in John 1:29]

Taketh away the sin of the world. Is not in verse 14, we should not move Scripture out of place, when giving an interpretation. By the way, really don't care much what Calvin said. Calvin, like many men, wrote about doctrinal things they found in Scripture. Calvin wrote about his views just as you and I are. Calvin discovered things he believed to be true.... he did not write the Bible. It is not "Thus says Calvin." it is thus saith the Lord. Only the reformed movement really clings that tightly to Calvin. Not me.

v. 15 -- Does this verse imply that the finished work on the cross is for ALL humanity, and that the gift of eternal life is offered to all? ABSOLUTELY No, it simply says, that everyone believing in Him. It does take BELIEVING in Jesus Christ to be saved. But who lifts us, that are dead in trespasses and sins, so that we may overcome spiritual depravity and be able to come to Christ? John 6, repeatedly, records our lord saying that no man can (is able) to come.

v 16. Does not teach all that you are cramming into it. At this time, as much as I know this will cause many to disagree, I would like to offer a straight translation from the greek text of this verse, into english: " For in this way, God loved the world, in that HE gave the only begotten Son, in order that everyone believing because of Him, may not perish but may be having eternal life.

Let's break this down, shall we. For in this way, (most translations leave out the greek word "γαρ" in english "in this way") God
loved ( ηγαπησεν and aorist active indicative verb, meaning, loved in the past) the world (κοσμον, which can mean: world, universe, creation, a select group or specified collection), in that HE gave ( εδωκεν aorist active indicative verb, gave in the past) the only begotten Son, in order that everyone believing ( πιστευων, present active participle, believing right now with continued results) because of ( εις, accusative of cause) Him, may not perish ( αποληται, aorist middle subjunctive verb, aorist=in past time, middle voice= self is creating the action, subjunctive=mood of possibility) but may be having ( εχη, present active subjunctive verb, a word meaning to have, to hold or be in possession of, present=now with continued results, active=this person is actively in possession, subjunctive=mood of possibility. ) eternal life.

Some may not like me providing a translation, but I challenge any greek student to refute it. So what does all this show us. Nothing really different in the two translations but allows me to highlight verb tenses.

1) As we can see, the way God so loved the world was to give His only begotten Son.
2) That this love for the world originated in the past. (aorist tense), from eternity, before the world began.
3.) That world here, could mean the whole of creation but probably means world, whether it is to be restricted in it's use is debatable.
4.) that the ones believing are active themselves in believing at the moment the person is peaking and the results may continue on.
5.) Everyone who is believing, is believing because of His finished work on behalf of the chosen of God.
6.) The person was in a state of perishing but now,
7.) Is possibly in the state of possessing eternal life.

I am going to skip to verse 18:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Don't you find it strange in this verse, that the Lord said, "....is condemned already, because he has not believed..." Don't you find it curious, that the statement, "is condemned already", sounds so much like the discussion of the potter and the clay in Rom. 9. Also, why does "because he has not believed in the name...." sound so determinate? This person is not yet dead. Could not this person, according to what you believe, change his mind later on?

I am going to ignore the rest because you ignored the verses that I put before you. Let us not pick and chose verses, let's go forth and see what it takes to harmonize all of Scripture.

A word study on the Biblical use of the word: WORLD

In the New Testament, Greek words that have been translated into the English word: WORLD appear 242 times in the KJV and 228 times in the NASB.

The Greek word is: κοσμος (a noun). It can mean: Creation, Universe, World. It is used in Scripture to mean, the things created, persons, governmental systems, systems of religion, a particular collection or particular group of people. κοσμος or it's variants - κοσμον, κοσμου and κοσμω, are found in the New Testament 202 times. All other Greek words that have been translated into the English word: WORLD make up the balance.

I want to concentrate on the use of the word in The Book of John. To see if we can come to some conclusion on whether the word "world" has to be seen as all inclusive. In particular, how it is used in John 3:16.

John used the Greek word : κοσμος or it's variant, 79 times. We will look at some of these verses. Let's see how John was inspired to use this word, we know as the English word WORLD:

(John 1:9) There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
Used here to mean: The World as a planet and it's inhabitants.
(John 1:10) He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
Used here to mean: 1) The physical world (Earth), 2) All of creation, particularly on Earth, 3) The people of the World (Here the "world" cannot mean everyone without exception because there were those who knew Him. Ex. John the Baptist.).
(John 1:29) On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
Used here to mean: People. The redeemed of God. 1) It cannot mean the sin curse of the whole world because the sin curse of the whole world has not been taken away. Many will perish in their sins because of the Adamic Curse. So common sense dictates this is a particular group. 2) Or, John was looking beyond time, when the taint of sin will be destroyed once and for all. In this case, WORLD means all of creation.
(John 4:42) and they said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy speaking: for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world.
Used here to mean: The one and only hope of humanity. No other person or thing can accomplish this work.
(John 6:51) I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
Used here to mean: People. 1) No evidence here as to whether WORLD should be restricted are not. Depends on your theology and what the whole counsel of God is teaching. 2) May refer more to Christ as God, who sustains life moment by moment, thus, by His sacrifice, the world will continue to exist.
(John 8:12) Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Used here to mean: The world of believers. While Jesus was the light of revelation and the only light of revelation, it could not be said, that the whole world saw this light. The light of life, is synonymous with eternal life, given to the chosen of God.
(John 9:39) And Jesus said, For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind.
Used here to mean: World or the Earth. The verse references inhabitants and distinguishes between those whom are blind (Elect) who will be given sight and religionist who think they can see but are blind.
(John 12:47) And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Used here to mean: People of the world. He came not this time to Judge but to be it's Saviour.
(John 14:17) even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.
Used here to mean: The unsaved world vs the saved. Disciples and all that possess the Spirit.
(John 15:18) If the world hateth you, ye know that it hath hated me before it hated you.
Used here to mean: People but in this case obviously restricted. Not the whole world because the whole world did not hate Jesus or the ones to whom He was speaking.
(John 17:6) I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.
Used here to mean: The inhabitants of Earth. The verse shows elective grace, "...whom thou gavest me... and ..."thou gavest them to me..."
(John 17:9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:
Used here to mean: The non-elect or unsaved world. The contrast is clear here, "I pray for them..." vs "... I pray not for the world...." Therefore, Elect vs non-elect.

So what then can we conclude, That WORLD is used in many kinds of ways, as I defined earlier. Therefore, if one is being honest with the Scriptures, no conclusive evidence can be given in John 3:16 and it's related verses from a study of the word WORLD. We must find the meaning by harmonizing all of Scripture and not excluding verses, that ones Theology might disagree with.

Should WORLD in John 3:16 be restricted? Not by it's self evidence but by the whole of God's teachings. Therefore, since those who believe it means: "The people of The whole world", cannot prove their point from a word study either, they should move on to other Scriptures to attempt to prove their point.

I think that is enough for now. Hope this helps some.

aqh
Individual verses isoloated out of context can be made to say anything you want. This is not how to study the bible.

Jesus was crucified , Jesus was resurrected for everyone. Your not the saviour.

Romans 8 .9'10 9¶But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I agree.
Black for our sins.
Red for the blood of Jesus that covers them.
White as in washed pure as snow,clothed in fine linen!

That verse you are agreeing with is not saying we have to walk in the spirit to be saved or maintain it. It is explaining what those who have been justified are doing. In fact. It is questionable if the second part of that verse is even scripture. Either way it in no way denies eternal security

This thread is still going... we can't settle the basics... God help us.

Too easy...

Galatians 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 8
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.