Irresistible Grace ?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
4

49

Guest
I will take a run at this for you.

The real problem here is that each one of these verses need a lot of time to explain but here is a running commentary in brief.

First, we have to put our minds into the eternal gear. We have to see God before He created anything. His complete and total architectural plan. His Decreeing all things that will take place, either by His direct power are His permissive will.

Paul had shown in the earlier verses that God does as He pleases with His creation. Not all of Israel was Israel, (Traditional view of the Jews was, that having Abraham as their father, was all they needed.), thus he is establishing further God's election in His purpose. In choosing Jacob over Esau, God breaks with man's traditions (In this case, that all things are inherited by the elder brother), and proves God is not bound by traditions of men.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
This verses is self explanatory. Paul uses an account that readers are familiar with. (Gen. 25)

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;
The primary push of this verse, is that neither of the two children, in and of themselves deserved anything from God. They were both under the Adamic Curse, wherein, when Adam fell, we all fell in him. Not just because of him but we were all in him when he fell, legally speaking. God's purpose in election was to bestow greatness on Jacob and not Esau. Therefore, since this was being done by God's eternal purpose, it could not be seen as if it were by works. It had nothing to do with their might are the will of either. It also, had nothing to do with them trying to please God. This understood, magnifies the last part of the verse, (that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
God told her that the traditional view of man's inheritance was going to be turned upside down. (Gen.25:23)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The reason for this, goes straight to the mind of God. God had made this determination from eternity before anything had been created. It was written by Malachi: Mal 1:2-3 ... I have loved you, saith Jehovah. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother, saith Jehovah: yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness. The natural man could not see how this was a demonstration of God's love. This verse also, clearly begins to setup an understanding that God's love is directed towards whom He pleases. In some kind of way, this love extends to all but not in the same way. This other kind of way, does not represent God's electing purpose. Rather, God seems to allow those he hates to be used for examples. Perhaps to increases the understanding of sin, for the Elect. ( This last thought is not a, Thus saith the Lord, just a thought) Ultimately though, it is to fulfill a purpose that only God truly understands. After all, the nonelect enjoy the blessings being bestowed on the elect, for now. (Mat.5:45)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Paul anticipates the objection of the reader.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Paul explains there is no injustice in God having mercy and compassion on who he wills. After all, none of mankind, deserves any mercy or compassion. In this same way, God is not unrighteous are unjust to show mercy on whom He chooses. Therefore, if God elects some to His mercy and gives them grace but not others, there is no injustice. All deserved condemnation. Mercy was shown to the elect but there still had to be a payment for their crimes (sin), so Jesus Christ stood in the place of the Elect. The others were passed by. God is not condemning them by passing by, they are already condemned because of the fall. Nothing in His Holy justice demands He save anyone but thankfully, He decided to save a remnant for His own purposes.

16 So then it is not of him through his own will, nor of him that is striving, but of God that is showing mercy.
This single statement, here in this verse, says it all. You can't achieve God's mercy or compassion by your own will are by striving to get it. God is the only one who can give it. Without it, there is no salvation. Your hope is as desolate as Esau's was.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Same purpose, herein spoken of, is to show God's purpose over man's will. God raised up Pharaoh, only for the purpose of showing His power. Pharaoh's sole purpose in life, was to be ruler while God brought forth the plagues. Thus Pharaoh is used as an example. (This goes back to what I said in verse 13.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he is hardening.
God does both, show mercy to whom He will and hardens who He wills. There is both a God hardening and a self hardening. (see verses: Mark 6:52, 8:17; John 12:40; Acts 19:9; Rom. 11:7; 2 Cor.3:44) Christ was hidden from the natural mind, we are told in Scripture and revealed to the elect. (see verses such as,
Mat.13:34,35; 16:17; John 1:5)

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Once again, Paul anticipates the readers objections. No one can resist God's determinate will.

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that is making accusations against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Paul now turns with all his force and defends God's Sovereignty. A Simple but unbelievably strong statement. Can the creation, question it's creator. That's like a lab rat, saying to the scientist, "What are you doing to me?" or "Why did you build this maze in this way?" God's Sovereign choice in all things and pertaining to all things is easy to understand and rejoice in, as long as, one approaches from the right direction. In other words, It is not about US and what we want, it is about GOD and what He has determined for us.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
In other words, God took from the same "lump" (From humanity), and made some to honor (the Elect), and some to dishonor ( the Nonelect ). Or keeping closer to the text, some for "mercy and compassion" and some for unforgivness and hardening.

I also, include the following part of this discussion in Romans:

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
This again, places the emphasis on those whom God made for the purpose of destruction. The world does not like this language and has from the beginning of God revealing himself, tried to usurp this clearly stated truth. This verse takes us back to verses 16 &17, as further explanation.

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he beforehand prepared unto glory,
Here, Paul states that these things are again for an example. Example to whom? The ones made for mercy, which were decreed from eternity. ( "which he beforehand prepared unto glory")

24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
Some have tried, to make these passages, apply only to the Jews. But this is clearly a false interpretation. We know this because Paul uses the pronoun "us" and includes the Gentiles or if you prefer "nations".

I hope, that in some small way, that this might have helped you. The rest is up to the Lord.
Thank you so much for this, and for taking time for such a well-put-together lesson. Have been leaning this way since the past few weeks now, and can see it no other way. Changes a lot of things, for sure!

Thank you again, and God bless!!
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,491
449
83
68
Thank you so much for this, and for taking time for such a well-put-together lesson. Have been leaning this way since the past few weeks now, and can see it no other way. Changes a lot of things, for sure!

Thank you again, and God bless!!
You are sincerely welcome. I am glad the good Lord made it possible for me to help.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,616
3,529
113
I will take a run at this for you.

The real problem here is that each one of these verses need a lot of time to explain but here is a running commentary in brief.

First, we have to put our minds into the eternal gear. We have to see God before He created anything. His complete and total architectural plan. His Decreeing all things that will take place, either by His direct power are His permissive will.

Paul had shown in the earlier verses that God does as He pleases with His creation. Not all of Israel was Israel, (Traditional view of the Jews was, that having Abraham as their father, was all they needed.), thus he is establishing further God's election in His purpose. In choosing Jacob over Esau, God breaks with man's traditions (In this case, that all things are inherited by the elder brother), and proves God is not bound by traditions of men.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
This verses is self explanatory. Paul uses an account that readers are familiar with. (Gen. 25)

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;
The primary push of this verse, is that neither of the two children, in and of themselves deserved anything from God. They were both under the Adamic Curse, wherein, when Adam fell, we all fell in him. Not just because of him but we were all in him when he fell, legally speaking. God's purpose in election was to bestow greatness on Jacob and not Esau. Therefore, since this was being done by God's eternal purpose, it could not be seen as if it were by works. It had nothing to do with their might are the will of either. It also, had nothing to do with them trying to please God. This understood, magnifies the last part of the verse, (that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
God told her that the traditional view of man's inheritance was going to be turned upside down. (Gen.25:23)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The reason for this, goes straight to the mind of God. God had made this determination from eternity before anything had been created. It was written by Malachi: Mal 1:2-3 ... I have loved you, saith Jehovah. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother, saith Jehovah: yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness. The natural man could not see how this was a demonstration of God's love. This verse also, clearly begins to setup an understanding that God's love is directed towards whom He pleases. In some kind of way, this love extends to all but not in the same way. This other kind of way, does not represent God's electing purpose. Rather, God seems to allow those he hates to be used for examples. Perhaps to increases the understanding of sin, for the Elect. ( This last thought is not a, Thus saith the Lord, just a thought) Ultimately though, it is to fulfill a purpose that only God truly understands. After all, the nonelect enjoy the blessings being bestowed on the elect, for now. (Mat.5:45)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Paul anticipates the objection of the reader.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Paul explains there is no injustice in God having mercy and compassion on who he wills. After all, none of mankind, deserves any mercy or compassion. In this same way, God is not unrighteous are unjust to show mercy on whom He chooses. Therefore, if God elects some to His mercy and gives them grace but not others, there is no injustice. All deserved condemnation. Mercy was shown to the elect but there still had to be a payment for their crimes (sin), so Jesus Christ stood in the place of the Elect. The others were passed by. God is not condemning them by passing by, they are already condemned because of the fall. Nothing in His Holy justice demands He save anyone but thankfully, He decided to save a remnant for His own purposes.

16 So then it is not of him through his own will, nor of him that is striving, but of God that is showing mercy.
This single statement, here in this verse, says it all. You can't achieve God's mercy or compassion by your own will are by striving to get it. God is the only one who can give it. Without it, there is no salvation. Your hope is as desolate as Esau's was.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Same purpose, herein spoken of, is to show God's purpose over man's will. God raised up Pharaoh, only for the purpose of showing His power. Pharaoh's sole purpose in life, was to be ruler while God brought forth the plagues. Thus Pharaoh is used as an example. (This goes back to what I said in verse 13.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he is hardening.
God does both, show mercy to whom He will and hardens who He wills. There is both a God hardening and a self hardening. (see verses: Mark 6:52, 8:17; John 12:40; Acts 19:9; Rom. 11:7; 2 Cor.3:44) Christ was hidden from the natural mind, we are told in Scripture and revealed to the elect. (see verses such as,
Mat.13:34,35; 16:17; John 1:5)

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Once again, Paul anticipates the readers objections. No one can resist God's determinate will.

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that is making accusations against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Paul now turns with all his force and defends God's Sovereignty. A Simple but unbelievably strong statement. Can the creation, question it's creator. That's like a lab rat, saying to the scientist, "What are you doing to me?" or "Why did you build this maze in this way?" God's Sovereign choice in all things and pertaining to all things is easy to understand and rejoice in, as long as, one approaches from the right direction. In other words, It is not about US and what we want, it is about GOD and what He has determined for us.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
In other words, God took from the same "lump" (From humanity), and made some to honor (the Elect), and some to dishonor ( the Nonelect ). Or keeping closer to the text, some for "mercy and compassion" and some for unforgivness and hardening.

I also, include the following part of this discussion in Romans:

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
This again, places the emphasis on those whom God made for the purpose of destruction. The world does not like this language and has from the beginning of God revealing himself, tried to usurp this clearly stated truth. This verse takes us back to verses 16 &17, as further explanation.

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he beforehand prepared unto glory,
Here, Paul states that these things are again for an example. Example to whom? The ones made for mercy, which were decreed from eternity. ( "which he beforehand prepared unto glory")

24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
Some have tried, to make these passages, apply only to the Jews. But this is clearly a false interpretation. We know this because Paul uses the pronoun "us" and includes the Gentiles or if you prefer "nations".

I hope, that in some small way, that this might have helped you. The rest is up to the Lord.
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,491
449
83
68
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Was there a point being made with that?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,616
3,529
113
Was there a point being made with that?
Irresistible grace is a myth, man made doctrine...that’s all...and Romans 9 doesn’t prove anything for a fatalist doctrine, only a misinterpretation.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,491
449
83
68
Irresistible grace is a myth, man made doctrine...that’s all...and Romans 9 doesn’t prove anything for a fatalist doctrine, only a misinterpretation.
I will say the same to you as to throughfaith, prove it. Take that portion of Scripture and show us what it teaches. Can't wait to be enlightened.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
967
384
63
The Holy Spirit is speaking through me on this post , and everyone who disagrees is ignoring the Holy Spirit...
...5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

OOPS. @throughfaith maybe the spirit speaking through you was mistaken
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

OOPS. @throughfaith maybe the spirit speaking through you was mistaken
Predestined for what please ?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,616
3,529
113
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Let’s get the right words first...

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestination has to do with the foreknowledge of God. The end result is not salvation, but being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. This ultimately occurs at the resurrection of the saints. It is the adoption, the redemption of the body. It is the future hope of those already saved and in Christ.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,491
449
83
68
Let’s get the right words first...

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestination has to do with the foreknowledge of God. The end result is not salvation, but being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. This ultimately occurs at the resurrection of the saints. It is the adoption, the redemption of the body. It is the future hope of those already saved and in Christ.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Whow, that is really twisted.

You said, " The end result is not salvation, but being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ."

How could one be conformed to the image of Christ if they are not saved. Certainly this deals with salvation. Plus, you forgot the verses that follow:

Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;
 
4

49

Guest
Irresistible grace is a myth, man made doctrine...that’s all...and Romans 9 doesn’t prove anything for a fatalist doctrine, only a misinterpretation.
What is misinterpreted? As stated earlier, am trying to learn here.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,616
3,529
113
How could one be conformed to the image of Christ if they are not saved. Certainly this deals with salvation. Plus, you forgot the verses that follow:
One has to be saved first, then God predestines them to be conformed to the image of Jesus. That’s a future thing. Once God knows you because you’re in Christ, then he predestinates you.
 
4

49

Guest
One has to be saved first, then God predestines them to be conformed to the image of Jesus. That’s a future thing. Once God knows you because you’re in Christ, then he predestinates you.
predestinate - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › predestinate


Something that's predestinate has been planned or arranged already — there's no way to change its outcome. Some religious observers believe that life is predestinate, willed by God.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,616
3,529
113
4

49

Guest
Yep, once in Christ, one is predestinated for the future adoption, which is the redemption of the body. God’s seal is the earnest , the guarantee this will happen.
Then that would not be predestinated......
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,491
449
83
68
One has to be saved first, then God predestines them to be conformed to the image of Jesus. That’s a future thing. Once God knows you because you’re in Christ, then he predestinates you.
So you have God's predestination on the other side of salvation? Saved first then predestinated? Is this your own made up interpretation? In all my years as a believer, never seen someone try that idea out.

You do realize that if predestination is removed from eternity, then it really can't be predestination. It then becomes a reactive concept.

Predestination means, In Theology. the action of God in foreordaining from eternity whatever comes to pass. the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation. Compare election (def. 4 Funk and Wagnalls' Dictionary)

Predestination means, : The belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God and cannot be changed. (Miriam - Webster)

If we go around changing the meaning of words, then all of our conversations will come to nothing.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,616
3,529
113
Predestination means, In Theology. the action of God in foreordaining from eternity whatever comes to pass. the decree of God by which certain souls are foreordained to salvation.
Ha ha, theology or according to what Scripture actually says? Let’s take another look.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Who is the “us”? Verse 1 says, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Paul is addressing already saved people. The Lord has predestinated us, saved people, unto the adoption. What is the adoption?

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

As a believer, we have been promised the future adoption which is the redemption of the body.

Philippians 3:
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We will finally be conformed to his image. It’s future.

1 Corinthians 15
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,616
3,529
113
If we go around changing the meaning of words, then all of our conversations will come to nothing.
The best dictionary on biblical words is the Bible itself. God’s word will define itself. You need a KJV.