So I have an idea for a discussion

it doesn’t matter it’s jesus who saves before or after the cross you have absolutely no grounds for tour argument. Jesus saves not the cross

it doesn’t matter it’s jesus who saves before or after the cross you have absolutely no grounds for tour argument. Jesus saves not the cross

Matthew 11:28-29

King James Version



28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Its what Jesus did on the Cross and the resurection that saves . No one ,including Abraham and everyone that believed in the OT would be lost without the death ,burial and resurection .

What you have just said is heresey and no Christian should have said what you just said .
Wrong . 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
believe what ? Just Jesus ? no
1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12¶Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

I Praise God that his word is so powerful and I am happy this verse did so much for you and your walk with our great God.
Blessings back to you

that Jesus saves before the cross or after is heresy ? Yes if someone rejects the gospel it would be heresy to say that Here’s someone saved by grace through faith by Jesus before the “ cross”

“And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:44-48, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Salvation is when you recognize who the savior actually is like this sinful woman did . You are trying to honor the cross and reject Gods word that’s what saves friend as long as one rejects it there is no life . Now that you’ve labeled me a heretic I’m going to ignore your posts it’s just an argument you seek

you should learn the gospel then you’ll realize who’s word your rejecting

Matthew 6:33

New International Version

33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

yes brother good stuff there the same principles always existed . The difference in the law and the Old Covenant and the gospel the new covenant is mans perception of God.

What i Mean is in the Old Testament this was their reaction when God spoke

“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:25‬ ‭

do you see what I’m saying ? When we believe what Jesus has to say about God our perception changes from his word will surely kill us ....to this

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

Many sadly still have the mindset of Horeb at Sinai about the sermon on the mount they think it will condemn them because it reveals the need for repentance within

were talking about the message the disciples were preaching . They were not preaching the death ,burial and resurrection. Besides the fact it hadn't happened yet ,they never understood it when Jesus told them . He told them so that AFTERWARDS they would remember his words . Jesus would not have been crucified if they had known .

What you have just said is heresey and no Christian should have said what you just said .
Wrong . 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
believe what ? Just Jesus ? no
1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12¶Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

I haven't said no one was saved by Faith before the Cross .My point was simply that the disciples were not preaching the death ,burial and resurrection. They were not preaching that for the forgivness o f sins . They were preaching the kindgdom .

They did not have to understand the details. Preaching that people should repent and believe the Good News that the Messiah who brings salvation has come was enough. Think about the prophetic utterances of Simeon and Anna when Jesus was presented in the temple. Their words were what they understood about the coming messiah and believing that Jesus was that one would still need to be preached today. We do not stop preaching about all those prophesies and how Jesus fulfilled them.

Those who believed that entered into the kingdom of heaven. While there would be more revelation of the mechanics behind how Christ would save the world, faith that he was the one prophesied, the King who would deliver Israel was enough to save them that believed.

We do preach the same message even though we can talk about the Cross and explain what Isaiah meant in chapter 53 as Philip did in Acts, even if they were preaching that people should repent and that the Messiah had arrived they were still preaching the Gospel and the promised Kingdom of God/heaven has a beginning of its prophesied fulfillment when John the Baptist and Jesus started preaching it.

To put faith in something that has not yet happened is sufficient when it comes to having faith in the promises of God. This good news carried by the feet of them that proclaim that the time has come for the Lord to make Zion's waste places like the Garden of Eden (Is 52) began with John the Baptist and those that believed were saved though Christ had not yet been crucified because that was a done deal from the foundation of the earth. Jesus declared them clean through his word.

It is a mystery and yet a little more simple than we may realize. I am not trying to argue with you, this is not really a disagreement. I just think that we are not comprehending the Gospel if we state that they did not preach the Gospel before the Cross when there are several scriptures that say they did.

Therefore we are trying too hard if we attempt to make a case for two Gospels one before the cross and one after. That is my opinion anyway. I have never really had this particular conversation before. These are just the thoughts that are coming to me as I think about the scriptures as I understand them so far.[/
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


https://www.bible.com/1/jhn.17.3.kjv
you truly have good understanding of the scriptures I’m very glad to
Meet you and enjoy your posts when you let it flow like you are here you are surely a brother in Christ

Now did you notice that he said "according to the scriptures"? This means he used the Old Testament prophesies to show them that this was God's plan all along. He used scriptures from the OT to show that it was God's plan that the Messaiah would suffer and bleed, he showed them scriptures that he would be buried with the rich, he showed them scriptures that he would rise again the third day.

Therefore you must concede that it is possible to preach these Old Testament scriptures by Jesus and his disciples before the cross, and that they were putting their faith in the cross when as yet they did not realize exactly how it was going to be fulfilled. That is why it could be said.. "You are clean by my Word" and "rejoice that your names are written in heaven"
Yes all that he did, the death, burial and resurrection was necessary but one could have faith in that without even understanding it. The thief on the cross was saved by faith by believing that Jesus was the King as prophesied and he did not have to understand what all that meant.

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

prophecy is about the lord Jesus indeed and his kingdom

Yes. It was not a good thing that that Moses had to put a veil over his face because they were afraid of the glory.

“And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-16, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Only in the gospel can we see his glory unveiled They never really saw who God is because of that veil .

in the gospel there is no veil so we’re hearing revelation of truth rather than a veiled carnal law. The same example is true with the veil which covered the entrance to the inner room no one could see in but the high priest once a year ....but Christ’s death tore the veil so we can see the glory

ummm I’m rubber your glue , so let the blessing be on you 😃

Sometimes I read this and I think about the grace that was available to them at that time if they would have come to him in faith. The fact that Moses face shown with the Glory of God should have made their hearts rejoice but their lack of faith caused them to fear.

Even today not only the unbelieving Jews but those that claim to know Christ may be guilty of a lack of faith and find no desire to fully surrender to all that God has for them. They are afraid to receive an experience of a filling of the Holy Spirit to speak the word of God boldly as they ought to speak. They are not really interested in any kind of Spiritual experience that God would love for them to have. They shrink back in fear of the supernatural. They shrink back in pride and fear of being labeled a fanatic if they were to allow God to use them in the gifts of the Spirit as written about in the book of Acts or 1 Corinthians. They are of that camp that "are glad" that these gifts ceased in the 1st century. They breath a sigh of relief and think in their hearts.. "whew... I am so glad those gifts ceased so that I don't have to operate in those gifts and look weird to people". These are those who would say to Moses... "cover your face" We don't want to experience any of that scary stuff.