Are the words Spirit and Soul used interchangeably in scripture? Is man bipartite or tripartite?

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S

Scribe

Guest
#41
certainly controversial if that is what you had in mind...kind of like your will you take the vaccine thread :LOL:
For those who like to discuss a good scripture topic it is exactly what Bible Discussion is designed for. No one needs to get upset if someone has an opinion that the scriptures lean more toward soul and spirit being interchangeable and this can be discussed as to reasons why or why not without the need to "shake ones head" :) I appreciate those who present their case with scriptures and attempts to understand the original languages.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#42
sorry double post I guess I’m just not followongntoumguysbthanks for trying to help me understand Sorry if I caused any offense God bless

I’m simple so I’m a stay here in this subject

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a living soul is not meaningless itsnGoda image just like Jesus was body and spirit That’s what we’ll be forever of redeemed a body with a spirit inside living souls for eternity
 
L

lenna

Guest
#43
For those who like to discuss a good scripture topic it is exactly what Bible Discussion is designed for. No one needs to get upset if someone has an opinion that the scriptures lean more toward soul and spirit being interchangeable and this can be discussed as to reasons why or why not without the need to "shake ones head" :) I appreciate those who present their case with scriptures and attempts to understand the original languages.
well don't fall off your camel

no one has talked about being upset. are you? I certainly am not

actually, I would think a good scripture topic would be one that brings us together as believers where we praise God for the depth of His word and the treasures we uncover there by His Spirit

the distinction between soul and spirit is actual and it is really smh material that you do not find it so
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#44
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7
Glad you brought that up, it's super relevant.
If we observe what happened here:
A living soul arises from the Spirit of God animating or quickening a physical body.
Body + Spirit = Living Soul

Soul is hence a phenomenon of temporal life in a physical body, the body being animated or moved by the Spirit.
When the Spirit stops animating the body, when the person "gives up the ghost" soul dies (they cannot know anything, or feel emotions anymore - as said in the Ecclesiastes - loss of conscienceless, sentience, intent, thought of the heart)...

Unless that person is transformed into a spiritual body, which can live onto eternity. Either way the person earned a "name" (or spiritual identity) for themselves in the meantime that goes into eternity, determined by the way they chose to live. So they are either blessed (receiving new name from Jesus) or they burn, eternal life or eternal death.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#45
oh I am not ignoring anything or I would not be posting on your thread :giggle:

I will assume or guess that you used your best examples regarding what you believe are the same (only different)?

interesting that you now state 'if most' are used interchangeably

I don't they are used interchangeably at all
OK. I understand that is your view. And I do think that the scriptures that use them interchangeably have more weight. I have presented some of the scriptures as examples. I will present many more later this evening when I get a chance to look at more New Testament examples so that we are dealing with the same Greek words used in 1 Thess and Heb for examples. Where the same greek words are used and their context.

It may be surprising to some to learn that the tri part view is the minority view. There is a reason for that. When all the scriptures are reviewed it is difficult to support that view. Many have only heard the tri part view and yet they will often admit that they have noticed that the words are used interchangeably in many scriptures. So it should not be such a surprise to find out that the tri part view is the minority view among theologians.
Regardless of your view it does not warrant disdain and ridiculing those who are in the majority view who do not interpret the scriptures as describing the soul in the way that some have already explained in these posts. There is no need to make disparaging remarks about those who interpret the majority of scriptures as using the soul and spirit interchangeably.

I hope we can have a mature discussion presenting scriptures and sound hermeneutics on the topic that will edify all those who join in the discussion. :)
 
L

lenna

Guest
#46
I suppose that sounds good, but you just made my previous point of how those who think that the bible intends to separate the definition of soul and spirit do not agree as to what part the soul plays and what part the spirit plays.

how so?

I have read post after post by different people here that absolutely define what part they play. actually, scripture defines the difference which is where we get the idea they are different to begin with

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

the soul: mind, emotions and will. some might call this 'personality'

the spirit: it is our spirits that are made alive when we accept Christ. we connect with our Maker through our spirits. God IS Spirit, He is not soul or emotions. those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. I saw where you mentioned Watchman Nee briefly. I am only a little familiar with him but I think he is very justified and correct in stating what he refers to as 'soul power' rather than operating in one of the gifts of the Spirit. in fact, we see this all the time today. but I guess that is for another thread

Romans tells us we are to live by the spirit and not the flesh. we do not receive new souls or new spirits. our spirits are renewed in Christ. people can become very emotional, that is their soul. we commune with God on another level, with our spirits. no problem rejoicing in our souls and loving God. He made us, He knows. however, we need to remember that God is Spirit and not flesh and as He is, He has made our spirits to be alive in Him. obviously souls are connected to our flesh and we operate through our flesh with our souls

does God have a soul? we are simply told He is Spirit. God is three, and yet one as are we. we are created in His image
 
L

lenna

Guest
#47
Regardless of your view it does not warrant disdain and ridiculing those who are in the majority view who do not interpret the scriptures as describing the soul in the way that some have already explained in these posts. There is no need to make disparaging remarks about those who interpret the majority of scriptures as using the soul and spirit interchangeably.
that's not a good start
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#48
For those who like to discuss a good scripture topic it is exactly what Bible Discussion is designed for. No one needs to get upset if someone has an opinion that the scriptures lean more toward soul and spirit being interchangeable and this can be discussed as to reasons why or why not without the need to "shake ones head" :) I appreciate those who present their case with scriptures and attempts to understand the original languages.
The question here isn't whether they are seemingly used interchangeably or not, but why.
Therein might lie the answer, imo.
You can use grapes and figs interchangeably when you oppose them to thorns they carry the same meaning in that context, but that doesn't mean that grapes and figs are one and the same thing. But however, it does mean that they share some common characteristic that allows you to use them interchangeably... all I'm saying is you don't want to jump to conclusions. My line of thinking is, what would be the common characteristics of soul and spirit, as opposed to body?
Also, if spirit is the causal parent of soul, as in Genesis when the Spirit breathes in and a living soul is made, that would also allow for some degree of interchangeable use.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#50
The scriptures above, which are the very ones that I provided, should answer the question and end the issue.
One would expect the Scriptures to be the final authority in all these spiritual matters. But no, that is never enough for some.
 
L

lenna

Guest
#51
Thanks. The OP seeks to misdirect people.
having been trained in deductive reasoning, research and analytical thinking, it is easy to spot the holes in the argument being presented and in case anyone should take offense at my use of the word 'argument' I mean it in the sense of debate but few use that word here

however, the approach is most definitely I am right and you are wrong with not much room for discussion

the following in response to you (post 3) is not up for the discussion that apparently is wanted
That was a very good representation of what is popularly taught by many who have read these teachings from books like Watchman Nee or others that have made it very popular in churches today.

However no theologian in academic circles has made an argument for Trichotomy (tripartate) nature of man for the past 100 years.
The reason is that it cannot be supported heremeneutically. Your two verses do not teach all that you said before posting them.
I will keep my thoughts on the steamrolling being done to myself. oops
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#52
I wouldn’t then see something obscure later and assume man is a soul at creation but has a soul later that doesn’t make any sense .
You need to understand some things clearly.

1. The Bible has progressive revelation from Genesis to Revelation. So what was said about Adam in Genesis must be compared to what was said about Adam elsewhere.

2. The Hebrew and Greek words for spirit are the same as for breath. Therefore context is critical.

3. When the Holy Spirit makes a statement in the Bible, Christians need to take it as coming from God. If the Holy Spirit says that man is a tripartite being, that should be enough.
 
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lenna

Guest
#53
One would expect the Scriptures to be the final authority in all these spiritual matters. But no, that is never enough for some.
when I study, I take in a minimum of 3 views. liberalism in the divinity collages today is well documented

and they thought Darwin was a threat
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#54
Glad you brought that up, it's super relevant.
If we observe what happened here:
A living soul arises from the Spirit of God animating or quickening a physical body.
Body + Spirit = Living Soul

When the Spirit stops animating the body, when the person "gives up the ghost" soul dies (they cannot know anything, or feel emotions anymore - as said in the Ecclesiastes - loss of conscienceless, sentience, intent, thought of the heart)...
Hello SoulWeaver!

Your claim above is false. Let's look at the infamous Eccl.9:5 scripture that everyone relies on and causes them to reject all other scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death.

===============================================================

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Many expositors erroneously use this scripture to prove that when a person dies that they are unconscious, alsleep. However, we have other scriptures such as the rich man and Lazarus which reveals that after both these men died their spirits were down in Hades, conscious and aware. To understand the scripture above, we must look at the rest of the context which are the verses preceding Eccl.9:5

This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Anyone who is among the living has hope —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

So, the context is regarding those who are still alive, i.e. the things that happen under the sun. For those who have joined the dead, they no longer have any part in life with those who are still alive. Their hate, jealousy and any other emotions no longer matter, because their spirits are now in Sheol/Hades and they have no part with the living. The scripture is not saying that people are unconscious and unaware after the death of the body. Then there's the following scripture:

Souls under the altar in heaven
================================================================
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
===============================================================

At the opening of the 5th seal, we have all of the souls that will have been killed on the earth during the first part of the tribulation period. This group is conscious and aware and having a conversation with the Lord. So, it is false to say that their souls are not, they cannot know anything, or feel emotions anymore. The rich man's spirit sure could feel emotions, as both he and Abraham said that he was in torment in flame.

It always amazes me that people grab ahold of Eccl.9:5 while ignoring all of the other scriptures which teach that the spirit/soul is conscious and aware after death. In further support that the spirit/soul is conscious after death, we have the following:

Souls under the earth
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Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:"

Who are these people under the earth? These are all of those who will died, where their spirits have gone down into Hades in torment until the great white throne judgment where they will be resurrected and judged for their sins.
===========================================================
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,744
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#55
Glad you brought that up, it's super relevant.
If we observe what happened here:
A living soul arises from the Spirit of God animating or quickening a physical body.
Body + Spirit = Living Soul

Soul is hence a phenomenon of temporal life in a physical body, the body being animated or moved by the Spirit.
When the Spirit stops animating the body, when the person "gives up the ghost" soul dies (they cannot know anything, or feel emotions anymore - as said in the Ecclesiastes - loss of conscienceless, sentience, intent, thought of the heart)...

Unless that person is transformed into a spiritual body, which can live onto eternity. Either way the person earned a "name" (or spiritual identity) for themselves in the meantime that goes into eternity, determined by the way they chose to live. So they are either blessed (receiving new name from Jesus) or they burn, eternal life or eternal death.
yes man was made alive when God who is spirit “ breathed a Measure of that spirit “ Into the man he had formed and man then became 1 living soul . That answers the question is man bi or tri part. And what a soul is it is a complete man a living spirit from God in the body.

adam is who brought death if they had believed what God said they would have lived. But when adam followed Satan he gave satan Mankind’s dominion on earth and therefore mankind were cursed with death because of the first command being transgressed.

“ once transgressed that command of God says to adam “ you will surely die “ that’s why we die today all men were there in adam for that curse it’s why we need salvation and redemption.

death came through Adams transgression to all Men

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Man was made alive in the beginning and revived through Christ both part are made new
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#56
Pull all the references in the Bible where soul and spirit are mentioned: you may notice that only souls are redeemed, not spirits.
So with that notion, I believe man has body, soul and spirit, and that the latter two aren't the same.
I am not sure what exactly you mean by this but please notice the following two verses:

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

And also:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Don't you think these are both talking about redeemed spirits in heaven?
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#57
Your claim above is false. Let's look at the infamous Eccl.9:5 scripture that everyone relies on and causes them to reject all other scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death.
I think you misread my post Ahwatukee.
In the last part, I said that soul transitions into spirit - all our choices we made during life are frozen final, as we enter the eternal life (receiving new spirit bodies for the life in our new identity in His likeness) or eternal death. I did not say there's no awareness at all, I pointed out there's no awareness and feelings and thoughts in the body (as we knew it in this life).
There's no "living soul" in the sense of first Adam, when the Spirit isn't moving the body anymore and the person gives up the ghost. Adam became a living soul by breath animating his body. When the breathe goes away the "living soul" goes away. But man's spirit or essence of his being receives eternal life or eternal death.
Anyway, I really don't want to argue, I just wanted to say I was misunderstood. :)
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#58
that's not a good start
I am assuming you take issue to my claim that the three part view is a minority view in theology. I base such statements on information like the following: from wikipedia

Constitution or nature of the person
Christian theologians have historically differed over the issue of how many distinct components constitute the human being.

Two parts (Dichotomism)
Main articles: Bipartite (theology)
The most popular view, affirmed by a large number of lay faithful and theologians from many Christian traditions, is that the human being is formed of two components: material (body/flesh) and spiritual (soul/spirit). The soul or spirit departs from the body at death, and will be reunited with the body at the resurrection.

Three parts (Trichotomism)
Main article: Tripartite (theology)
A significant minority of theologians across the denominational and theological spectrum, in both the East and the West, have held that human beings are made up of three distinct components: body or flesh, soul, and spirit. This is known technically as trichotomism. The biblical texts typically used to support this position are 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12.[32]
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#59
I think you misread my post Ahwatukee.
In the last part, I said that soul transitions into spirit - all our choices we made during life are frozen final, as we enter the eternal life (receiving new spirit bodies for the life in our new identity in His likeness) or eternal death. I did not say there's no awareness at all, I pointed out there's no awareness and feelings and thoughts in the body (as we knew it in this life).
There's no "living soul" in the sense of first Adam, when the Spirit isn't moving the body anymore and the person gives up the ghost. Adam became a living soul by breath animating his body. When the breathe goes away the "living soul" goes away. But man's spirit or essence of his being receives eternal life or eternal death.
Anyway, I really don't want to argue, I just wanted to say I was misunderstood. :)
Soul is hence a phenomenon of temporal life in a physical body, the body being animated or moved by the Spirit.
When the Spirit stops animating the body, when the person "gives up the ghost" soul dies (they cannot know anything, or feel emotions anymore - as said in the Ecclesiastes - loss of conscienceless, sentience, intent, thought of the heart)...


Well, are you in agreement with what you wrote above? My point was/is, that the spirit/soul continues on with all of its conscious emotions, memories, etc. In support of this, we have the spirit/soul of the rich man who could see father Abraham and Lazarus, conversed with him, could feel the pain of being in torment in flames and remembered his five brothers at his father's house.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#60
I am not sure what exactly you mean by this but please notice the following two verses:

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

And also:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Don't you think these are both talking about redeemed spirits in heaven?
I don't. I think the second verse is about the same thing as the blood of Abel crying out to God from the ground, so that's why the word soul is used here, it's for a very good reason. Because what is crying to God are souls that were snuffed out, aka blood, blood itself calling for justice.