Calvinism and Context?

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Apr 2, 2020
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Your own experience is subjective and I would exercise caution using it as an example for how God works in the lives of others. God is not limited by a person's circumstances... and no .....one person is not chosen over someone else.
I'm well aware of that, and I didn't mean to imply that one was chosen over another. More that some He seems to go to much greater lengths to persuade than others. God was very persistent with me in such a way that I simply cannot deny that I was chosen to believe. It seems to me God could give the proof that men demand if He so chose yet He only provides it to some and not others. Some live very hard lives that would make it so easy to not believe in a good God. No one chooses the circumstances of their own lives, and no one makes choices in a vacuum. The knowledge God has of each individual means He could shape their lives so they couldn't possibly deny Him without doing violence to their will.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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You keep saying ' Calvin ' I'm not bashing him. the term Calvinsm is used to mean the T.U.L.I.P. or as some prefer ( sounds nice and fluffy ) ' the doctrines of grace '
I didn't know that you could divide a man from his writings and teachings.

But on another note, I noticed very sparse response to this posting of yours. I will answer.

Following on the same lines of observation of the text/ passages / book ect .( Inductive method) Which is basically what does the verse say .
Could we look at the next verse .
John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Same principle as before.
What does the verse say ? not what it is presumed to teach .
The observation questions . To who , what , why , when ect. What's the overall intent of the writer? ( John ) John 20.31 helps .
Thoughts ?
The answer to your question is exactly what the verse says. There is no talk of divine predestination. The context is the Bread of Life being presented to men dead in their sins. And we all know that a dead man is helpless to follow any course of activity. The word "draw" in the Greek, "helkyõ", differs from "syro" in that it indicates a gentle drawing as opposed to a forceful dragging. A fisherman "draws" the net full of fish to the side of the boat, but then, because of the weight of fish, "drags" the net forcefully on board. Men, dead in their sins are gently "drawn" to the source of LIFE - Christ, by the Father. Does not the implication of "gentle drawing" defeat Calvin. His doctrine is based on a FORCEFUL act!

Biblehub give Calvin's commentary on this verse. Let us see how he gets around this. Quote Biblehub:

Unless the Father draw him. To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist, in order to carry out the metaphor in the apposite clause, says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, [153] as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey him.
Do you perceive the difficulty he must get around? He must, in one breath, own (i) that the "drawing" is not forceful but (ii) that men are all unwilling. Calvin must persuade us that an unwilling man can be "gently drawn" against his will? But where is "predestination"? He rightly uses the word "election" in the previous sentence, but scripture pointedly says that "election" is based ON FOREKNOWLEDGE not predestination. And when it comes to "predestination" in Romans 8:29, it FOLLOWS "Foreknowledge". The predestination is not to be SAVED! The predestination is what those CHOSEN in foreknowledge are for - to be conformed to the image of Christ. Calvin must leave this out. He must leave out the word "foreknowledge" because that IMPLIES that God KNEW that some men would embrace Jesus, and that some men would not. God is sovereign. If He has foreknowledge that a man will curse Him, He does not have to draw the man. That makes Him servant and not Sovereign.
  • God views all men equal in grace
  • God prepares a Saving Work
  • All men are too weak to respond
  • Some men will despise and hate God. God leaves them in their weakness.
  • Some men will respond, but remain weak. God draws them
  • Of those men that God knew would embrace Him, He calls
  • Of those men called, they are then predestined for another purpose - to be transformed into the image of Christ
  • Of those men called, they are then predestined for an Inheritance - co heirs with Christ
In this God has prepared a way for all men. Most refuse it. Those who would take this way are drawn. Of those drawn all are predestined for God's Purpose - NOT salvation.* Man's free will is intact. God's sovereignty is intact. Mercy was for all but only some would embrace it. These God knows and extends aid for their weakness. The weak to whome mercy is extended are THE predestined.

* Israel is our picture. They are SAVED by the Lamb. But this salvation is NOT for Egypt. It is for a Land far away. The wilderness is the transforming work (Deut.8:1-8). The old generation perish and the new who keep the Law INHERIT Canaan. Israel were not predestined for the blood of the Lamb. Every Egyptian could have slain a lamb and painted his door with blood. But they hated the God of Israel. Israel are no better. they worship idols with the Egyptians. But they obey and are saved. But their salvation is not for itself. It is for a far Land.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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I didn't know that you could divide a man from his writings and teachings.

But on another note, I noticed very sparse response to this posting of yours. I will answer.



The answer to your question is exactly what the verse says. There is no talk of divine predestination. The context is the Bread of Life being presented to men dead in their sins. And we all know that a dead man is helpless to follow any course of activity. The word "draw" in the Greek, "helkyõ", differs from "syro" in that it indicates a gentle drawing as opposed to a forceful dragging. A fisherman "draws" the net full of fish to the side of the boat, but then, because of the weight of fish, "drags" the net forcefully on board. Men, dead in their sins are gently "drawn" to the source of LIFE - Christ, by the Father. Does not the implication of "gentle drawing" defeat Calvin. His doctrine is based on a FORCEFUL act!

Biblehub give Calvin's commentary on this verse. Let us see how he gets around this. Quote Biblehub:



Do you perceive the difficulty he must get around? He must, in one breath, own (i) that the "drawing" is not forceful but (ii) that men are all unwilling. Calvin must persuade us that an unwilling man can be "gently drawn" against his will? But where is "predestination"? He rightly uses the word "election" in the previous sentence, but scripture pointedly says that "election" is based ON FOREKNOWLEDGE not predestination. And when it comes to "predestination" in Romans 8:29, it FOLLOWS "Foreknowledge". The predestination is not to be SAVED! The predestination is what those CHOSEN in foreknowledge are for - to be conformed to the image of Christ. Calvin must leave this out. He must leave out the word "foreknowledge" because that IMPLIES that God KNEW that some men would embrace Jesus, and that some men would not. God is sovereign. If He has foreknowledge that a man will curse Him, He does not have to draw the man. That makes Him servant and not Sovereign.
  • God views all men equal in grace
  • God prepares a Saving Work
  • All men are too weak to respond
  • Some men will despise and hate God. God leaves them in their weakness.
  • Some men will respond, but remain weak. God draws them
  • Of those men that God knew would embrace Him, He calls
  • Of those men called, they are then predestined for another purpose - to be transformed into the image of Christ
  • Of those men called, they are then predestined for an Inheritance - co heirs with Christ
In this God has prepared a way for all men. Most refuse it. Those who would take this way are drawn. Of those drawn all are predestined for God's Purpose - NOT salvation.* Man's free will is intact. God's sovereignty is intact. Mercy was for all but only some would embrace it. These God knows and extends aid for their weakness. The weak to whome mercy is extended are THE predestined.

* Israel is our picture. They are SAVED by the Lamb. But this salvation is NOT for Egypt. It is for a Land far away. The wilderness is the transforming work (Deut.8:1-8). The old generation perish and the new who keep the Law INHERIT Canaan. Israel were not predestined for the blood of the Lamb. Every Egyptian could have slain a lamb and painted his door with blood. But they hated the God of Israel. Israel are no better. they worship idols with the Egyptians. But they obey and are saved. But their salvation is not for itself. It is for a far Land.
See i would just see it simply as . The Father attracts people to the Son before the cross . After the cross Jesus is the one who draws all men . And the Holy Spirit does not draw anyone .
Predestination is simply after the person believes, God predestines that person to future Glorification . ( Eternal security ) Election is something different. it is do with 'service ' .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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I didn't know that you could divide a man from his writings and teachings.

But on another note, I noticed very sparse response to this posting of yours. I will answer.



The answer to your question is exactly what the verse says. There is no talk of divine predestination. The context is the Bread of Life being presented to men dead in their sins. And we all know that a dead man is helpless to follow any course of activity. The word "draw" in the Greek, "helkyõ", differs from "syro" in that it indicates a gentle drawing as opposed to a forceful dragging. A fisherman "draws" the net full of fish to the side of the boat, but then, because of the weight of fish, "drags" the net forcefully on board. Men, dead in their sins are gently "drawn" to the source of LIFE - Christ, by the Father. Does not the implication of "gentle drawing" defeat Calvin. His doctrine is based on a FORCEFUL act!

Biblehub give Calvin's commentary on this verse. Let us see how he gets around this. Quote Biblehub:



Do you perceive the difficulty he must get around? He must, in one breath, own (i) that the "drawing" is not forceful but (ii) that men are all unwilling. Calvin must persuade us that an unwilling man can be "gently drawn" against his will? But where is "predestination"? He rightly uses the word "election" in the previous sentence, but scripture pointedly says that "election" is based ON FOREKNOWLEDGE not predestination. And when it comes to "predestination" in Romans 8:29, it FOLLOWS "Foreknowledge". The predestination is not to be SAVED! The predestination is what those CHOSEN in foreknowledge are for - to be conformed to the image of Christ. Calvin must leave this out. He must leave out the word "foreknowledge" because that IMPLIES that God KNEW that some men would embrace Jesus, and that some men would not. God is sovereign. If He has foreknowledge that a man will curse Him, He does not have to draw the man. That makes Him servant and not Sovereign.
  • God views all men equal in grace
  • God prepares a Saving Work
  • All men are too weak to respond
  • Some men will despise and hate God. God leaves them in their weakness.
  • Some men will respond, but remain weak. God draws them
  • Of those men that God knew would embrace Him, He calls
  • Of those men called, they are then predestined for another purpose - to be transformed into the image of Christ
  • Of those men called, they are then predestined for an Inheritance - co heirs with Christ
In this God has prepared a way for all men. Most refuse it. Those who would take this way are drawn. Of those drawn all are predestined for God's Purpose - NOT salvation.* Man's free will is intact. God's sovereignty is intact. Mercy was for all but only some would embrace it. These God knows and extends aid for their weakness. The weak to whome mercy is extended are THE predestined.

* Israel is our picture. They are SAVED by the Lamb. But this salvation is NOT for Egypt. It is for a Land far away. The wilderness is the transforming work (Deut.8:1-8). The old generation perish and the new who keep the Law INHERIT Canaan. Israel were not predestined for the blood of the Lamb. Every Egyptian could have slain a lamb and painted his door with blood. But they hated the God of Israel. Israel are no better. they worship idols with the Egyptians. But they obey and are saved. But their salvation is not for itself. It is for a far Land.
TULIP theology essentially starts in the forth century with Augustine , but is not formalised till later developments.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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You are the one promoting the sovereignty of God over the grace of God. If that were true then the word "sovereignty" would replace the word "grace" in the verses quoted.

And you cannot have it both ways. Either the grace of God offers salvation freely to all mankind (as stated in Titus 2:11) or the sovereignty of God limits salvation to just a few of the so-called "elect".

So rather than following the doctrines of men, take some time to study and digest those quoted verses from Titus. Which would then lead to you rejecting the distortion of God's sovereignty.
Titus 2:11 does not say, "God OFFERS salvation", it says, "God BRINGS salvation" You seem to be the one that changes the wording of scriptures.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Titus 2:11 does not say, "God OFFERS salvation", it says, "God BRINGS salvation" You seem to be the one that changes the wording of scriptures.
Put the passage into context. Lets not chop out part of the verse to form a pretext which is not consistent with the whole counsel of God.

Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 ¶ These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

The grace of God hath appeared to all men. The grace of God bringeth salvation not the will of man. God saves no man against mans own will. Mans will must be submitted to Gods will in the matter of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Titus 2:11 does not say, "God OFFERS salvation", it says, "God BRINGS salvation" You seem to be the one that changes the wording of scriptures.

you're right, Titus 2:11 says the grace of God brings salvation and has appeared to all men.

@Nehemiah6 who i thought was a KJV-only man, seems to have been quoting the NIV here?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Predestination is simply after the person believes, God predestines that person to future Glorification .

no friend; you're quite wrong. you are abusing language, eisegetically redefining words.

what you're describing is rightly called 'postdestination'

"pre-" means "before"
"
post-" means "after"


the scripture says He predestined us, not He postdestined us.
the Word describes God as the causative agent,
The Beginning and The End; you're describe your self as the origin.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Predestination is simply after the person believes
besides the abuse of vocabulary i covered in the previous post . . .

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30)
is this an order of events being described?
  1. omniscience
  2. predestination
  3. calling
  4. justification
  5. glorification
so where is belief in this sequence? at 1.5? did you already believe before God drew & called you?
or do you put your belief at step 0? did you believe before God even knew it?
 
Feb 28, 2016
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Thanks Post,
we so 'appreciate your wisdom and understanding, and diligent study of our Lord's Word...
Thank You for sharing what Yeshua has revealed to you...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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@Nehemiah6 who i thought was a KJV-only man, seems to have been quoting the NIV here?
I quoted the KJV to prove to you that your false idea of sovereignty over grace opposes the Gospel. It is an anti-Gospel idea since the grace of God does bring salvation to all men, not just a few of the so-called "elect". Of course I do not expect this simple truth to sink in, when you have been indoctrinated into the doctrines of men. It is almost impossible for those who believe false gospels to return to the true Gospel.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
I quoted the KJV to prove to you that your false idea of sovereignty over grace opposes the Gospel. It is an anti-Gospel idea since the grace of God does bring salvation to all men, not just a few of the so-called "elect". Of course I do not expect this simple truth to sink in, when you have been indoctrinated into the doctrines of men. It is almost impossible for those who believe false gospels to return to the true Gospel.
There is a blindness that comes to those who hold these false tenets for sure....

.....and sadly not only is it near impossible for them to return to the true Gospel they indoctrinate many more along the way.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I quoted the KJV to prove to you that your false idea of sovereignty over grace opposes the Gospel.

what in the world are you talking about? do you even know what you're talking about?


if God is not sovereign, His grace is meaningless. these qualities are inextricably linked. it is because of His sovereignty that His grace is able to save! the sovereignty of "
the Almighty" is not 'opposed' to grace; it's essential to it!
 
Feb 28, 2016
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ROM. 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies.

this Truth is evident by ALL of the Scriptures that use the term 'elect' -
we say to search the scriptures for the whole council of God'...
(OUR OPINION DOESN'T COUNT)...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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you copy-pasted it into a post, yes, but then when you spoke from your own heart, you quoted the NIV, here:

the grace of God offers salvation freely to all mankind (as stated in Titus 2:11)




the grace of God does bring salvation to all men
the KJV reads that the grace of God bringeth salvation.
the KJV reads that this grace has appeared to all men.


what you just said, "bring salvation to all men" indicates universal salvation, and it's not what Titus 2:11 says.
God says His grace has appeared to all men, and that it carries salvation with it. not all men are saved; salvation does not come to all men, but only to those who believe. grace appears even to those who do not believe, and are condemned already.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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you copy-pasted it into a post, yes, but then when you spoke from your own heart, you quoted the NIV, here:









the KJV reads that the grace of God bringeth salvation.
the KJV reads that this grace has appeared to all men.


what you just said, "bring salvation to all men" indicates universal salvation, and it's not what Titus 2:11 says.
God says His grace has appeared to all men, and that it carries salvation with it. not all men are saved; salvation does not come to all men, but only to those who believe. grace appears even to those who do not believe, and are condemned already.
The Greek reads "has appeared the grace of God bringing salvation to all men." There's some ambiguity as Greek syntax is not as important as English syntax but the grammar of the Greek seems more amenable to linking all men with bringing salvation and has appeared with the grace of God. The idea is not that all men are saved through the bringing of salvation, but that all men are eligible for salvation through the grace of God.
The issue with a Calvinist doctrine of election is it doesn't work unless the grace of God isn't available to all men when the gospel in fact teaches it is.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I saw the link you posted. Which is what prompted the observation with regard to if you had ever posted a link. Your post was entirely contradictory and petty. There is no conflict with a person posting a link that supports something they're hoping to convey to the public here, to that of not being a real person for doing so, as you implied.
the point is that we posted links; we didn't actually make our own cases.
we might as well have been an advertising banner or a robot that generates spam.

the point is a person can find links that make some case and a person can also find links that make the opposite case. so the existence of webpages one can link to doesn't constitute any kind of persuasive argument.

The first to plead his cause seems right,
until his neighbor comes and examines him.
(Proverbs 18:17)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The Greek reads "has appeared the grace of God bringing salvation to all men." There's some ambiguity as Greek syntax is not as important as English syntax but the grammar of the Greek seems more amenable to linking all men with bringing salvation and has appeared with the grace of God. The idea is not that all men are saved through the bringing of salvation, but that all men are eligible for salvation through the grace of God.
The issue with a Calvinist doctrine of election is it doesn't work unless the grace of God isn't available to all men when the gospel in fact teaches it is.
i mostly find it interesting that an adamant proponent of the idea that the NIV is authored by Satan and the KJV is more perfect than the Greek, would when putting what he understands about the scripture into his own word, repeat the phrasing of the NIV. he & i have both been members here for years, and yes i am guilty here of poking at him over it, tho i am not guilty of slander and i hope not guilty of coming to the discussion with maliciously bitter intent.

that not all are saved is beyond question; there is no need to pursue argument about it.
that God is not willing for any to perish but that all come to knowledge of the truth, there is likewise no question or need for argument.
 
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