I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

EleventhHour · Sep 12, 2020

And what was Jesus` instruction to the rich young ruler

CherieR · Sep 12, 2020

Jesus is God incarnate. Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross and then rose again the third day. Jesus said "I and the Father are one"( John 10:30 ) Therefore God in human flesh( as the Lord Jesus) took up the punishment for sin and the suffering of the cross that we wouldn't have to face eternal hell and instead can be with Him forever through faith and trust in Jesus as our Savior.

Duskey · Sep 12, 2020

Bugs said:

You’re not answering the OP. He asked why Christ had to die. Why was it necessary?

When people wrong you Bugs and you forgive them, killing your son is not part of the equation, so why was it that way with God?

garee · Sep 12, 2020

Duskey said:

Christ, eternal God cannot die. The Son of man suffered unto death. The father giving his Spirit life in jeopardy for us .He does not offer death .

bojack · Sep 12, 2020

garee said:

Jesus suffered death on the cross because He associated with us in our sin, He took our sin .. He was at work the instant His body breathed His last breath .. You will never die , your body will ..

garee · Sep 12, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

All of the words used in the Bible and then translated to Hell in English meant grave:
In Hebrew: Sheol (meant grave)
In Greek: Hades (grave)
In Aramaic: Gehenna (was a dump where people burned things).

'The images of Hellfire came largely from Dante's work "Inferno". It is man's imagination of what Hellfire is.

I have a good evangelical friend who told me that she had always feared Hell until she studied The Bible in college and gained an understanding the issues we face with the Bible of which only a few are:

Translational errors, the fact that we don't have the originals or even the copies or their copies and since everything was written down on scroll and then repeated over and over again by hand, it is impossible that a few words were not messed up.

Add to this that everything that Jesus said was not written down for at least 30 to 70 years after His Death so we have memories or memories. Ever play telephone.

The Bible is the Inspired Word of God written by fallible men. And, I have been reading here for a long time before ever posting and judging by all the disagreement, we each see the Bible through a different lense.

I agree its one of the reason we are given four to represent universal accounts of four different men.

We do not need to imagine. We are sufferings the pangs of hell the wage of sin death. Being yoked with Christ our rest the load is made lighter, a burden of two .

garee · Sep 12, 2020

bojack said:

The death he suffered was unto death not dead never to rise again . Dead asleep to a believers. Four days for Lazarus in the breathable tomb .

Mii · Sep 13, 2020

@MichaelLone @PC123

What you are saying is that you are not satisfied with the answers you have heard? I will assume that you already have heard what has been said in this thread and what is clearly written right?

There are other things not so clearly written. Read Psalms 2. Or consider Revelation 10:7

If you are looking for this answer in the same way that people want to know what life is after death, I don't think you will get an answer. Imagine all the people that have heard all this and yet still didn't understand and yet "really really" wanted to know the truth?

You have to engage faith when asking these questions. I would encourage you to factor that in when seeking as it is central. Not saying you don't in your personal life, it's just that "without faith it is impossible to please Him." That's a scripture I could post if you'd like...it's in Hebrews 11 roundabouts.

I'll put forward two terms that came to mind when typing this. I rewrote it about 10 hours later...I've been down these thought trails and didn't get anywhere productive.

I was thinking about what "saving grace" means vs "grace" scripturally speaking
and then what "Good faith" means vs "in faith"

I realize the terms are simple but the first two are used in human contexts and the second in both the divine and human. It has been something "to do" to quell doubts with walking through my own logic and contrasting the fallen nature with the seed incorruptible. Perhaps that would be of utility to either of you in such a period.

Oh, consider the judge concept. Can anyone here imagine ruling on a supreme court decision or being a supreme justice? Even take county judges for example...there is so much to learn about judgement even in the human context to presume too lofty a view on your own judgement. Debt cancellations happen. Substitutionary atonement isn't unheard of financially speaking and even in capital punishment (though you would have to do a lot of research). There's a lot to discuss if you can concentrate the topic a bit that I'm willing to.

I'm not saying either of you are doing this but other people read the forums too

Also consider of what mind you are seeking the answer for. The spiritual blueprint is in scripture. The carnal blueprint is hardly spoken to...probably as it is a passing shadow. Suspending judgement on the carnal questions (one's that I know are not in faith) is what I do. Sometimes it is rather irritating but kind of like a bad mosquito problem or an incessant fly that I "have" to just go elsewhere.

Lucy-Pevensie · Sep 13, 2020

Duskey said:

You can forgive someone who has wronged you. But can you give them eternal life?

Lucy-Pevensie · Sep 13, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

But without Jesus we are filthy rags. We don't have our own righteousness. How you behave is not what has saved you.

Ann-Marie said:

Why do I say you should fear him? Because he says so.
Fearing God is what can keep us from straying into the territory of sin because we don't want to disappoint him.
I'm not counselling you to go about in terror all the time. You are saved. You aren't destined for hell but reverent fear of God can guide you. God is love yes, I don't misunderstand you. Love is not one-dimensional. Love is not all fluffy & cuddly all the time.

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Mathew 10:28 (NASB)
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Have a think about why you believe vengeance is wrong for God. Because it isn't. Vengeance is his.
The enemies of The Lord deserve punishment. It is right, good & just.

Bugs · Sep 13, 2020

Duskey said:

You do not take your sin seriously like God does. For you it is no problem to forgive and live on with another sinner because you yourself are one.

God is not like us though. You can not expect Him to behave as you. Just about every post in this thread explains why our Holy God cannot just ignore sin. It has to be dealt with to be holy.

It all started through Adam, one man set the course of sin for all humanity. Now one man, that is Christ was able to redeem us all. That is how sin was dealt with.

For some reason though you are angry about God's solution.

Fundamental · Sep 13, 2020

MichaelLone said:

John 17 revealed to me the true nature of Jesus Christ. It touched me so emotionally and I hope it will help you understand too.

Jesus could easily turn the mob against the Jewish empire and Roman kingdom. But He turned Himself in to save them all. So no other blood would be shed but the gospel could be spread.

Also Jesus encounter with Pilate in John reflects a lot of the nature of our Lord. “Behold the man!” And when Jews said against Pilate “It says “King of the Jews” but it should say “He says He’s king of Jews”. Pilate then replies; “That what I wrote remains!”

Pilate knew Jesus was “THE man” enduring this suffering to safe His church without the shed of any blood but His own. The TRUE King. They do not openly record this because Romans had their own gods ands emperors.

It was not God nailing Jesus to the cross, it was us denying the truth and conforming to this world which is of the devil. If God intervened it would go against Jesus’ will.
Jesus even touched the Roman empire so profound the gospel found her way to the west. Surely they persecuted this at the very beginning, but they were also highly interested in this man shaking the east.
His teachings changed and touched us all. It would’ve never sank in if Jesus fought against the devil to save His flesh.

Ann-Marie · Sep 13, 2020

Lucy-Pevensie said:

But without Jesus we are filthy rags. We don't have our own righteousness. How you behave is not what has saved you.

What? If what you say is true, then we may as well be murderers, looters & horrible to others because we say the Sinners Prayer and all is forgiven. NO.

You completely disregard Jesus's teachings where were for US ... ALL. Sermon on the Mount ... tells US how to behave so Jesus must have thought we could some of it, at least. To call everyone the same makes no sense.
I KNOW I am not a Hitler or a Stalin or even a garden variety narcissist who uses and hurts people. All sin is NOT the same.

In any case, every single religion says whether or not we go to Heaven will be based on Faith and how good we are. And YES, some people are horrible. And, I believe that all beliefs about God have something to offer. Why? Because, we just cannot KNOW God fully ... ever. What we have is men who wrote the Bible who were inspired and who had very different views about God. THEREFORE, in the Bible you see God of Love and a God of Wrath. WHAT YOU FOCUS ON IS VERY TELLING.

I havent seen anything on this site about the LIFE OF JESUS. WHY IS THAT? The only focus is "Jesus died for me". Jesus saved me. Well here is muy question
WHAT DO WE DO FOR JESUS? WHAT DO WE DO FOR GOD? DO WE OBEY JESUS VERY CLEAR COMMAND TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES? OR NOT? IT IS ONE OF THE TWO GREATEST COMMANDMENTS. DO WE IGNORE IT?

PC123 · Sep 13, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Giving to the Needy
6 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[j]
but deliver us from the evil one.[k]’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting
16 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Treasures in Heaven
19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[l] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,[m] your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Do Not Worry
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[n]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

I started reading the OT and started getting kind of lost in Leviticus with all the old Jewish laws.
Then someone told me to go onto the NT. The sermon on the mount was like wow, ok this is the standard to which i should live my life. It's the perfect start to the Gospel.

Ann-Marie · Sep 13, 2020

PC123 said:

Exactly. You have it. Look into Red Letter Bible Christians.
The focus is on the New Testament ... on Jesus.

Jesus said the two greatest commandments are these:
1) Love the Lord, God with all your heart
2) Love Your Neighbor as yourself
AND ... UPON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE REST.

Read what Jesus says very carefully and you will see nothing but love. Jesus, the Son of God came to save us, but we do need to listen to what He has asked us to do as best we can. That is NOT works. It is obeying Jesus, our Saviour who said to forgive 77 x 7 ... which means endlessly. Does that sound like a God who is going to send you to Hell?

PC123 · Sep 13, 2020

Mii said:

No... What i said is that i don't understand... That is totally different to not being satisfied... I can't speak for @MichaelLone but i think he is saying the same thing considering one of the examples he gave the same as what i had pondered

Help me through this thought process... A hypothetical scenario...

Say, while I was at work my house got broken into and my wife was raped and killed by 3 men...
Now instead of those three men being punished I choose to hand over my only son to the courts to sentence him to death for the sins of those three men... Now i have no wife and no child and these three criminals are at large...

Can you see our confusion?

PC123 · Sep 13, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

Ye the red letters are cool, it's like ok pay attention here...

I wasn't worried about being sent to hell for having a lack of understanding... I think the OP might be thinking that but...
Thats why is kind of trying to say the same thing to him... We aren't called to understand everything...
Many things we will never truly understand in this life...

Ann-Marie · Sep 13, 2020

PC123 said:

Many want certainty because it is reassuring. But, when it comes to God, we cannot have that. And, in a way, the mystery that is God, is also the beauty of it all. The Old and New Testaments are radically different ... BUT with Jesus ... we finally have it. Jesus ministered for 3 years and He had a message for all of us. No one can possibly follow it perfectly, BUT we have to try and to do our best. Jesus greatest gift to us IS his message.

Yes, he died & atonement theory still stands. I find it difficult to comprehend and I am not alone in that feeling ...
I know that one day I will understand and, for me, that is enough.

PC123 · Sep 13, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

To me, God's wonder and mystery is the beauty of it all...
That's why i tend not to get too caught up in specific doctrines...
Like how many things does a person have to believe to be a saved Christian? No more than a hand full?

And when it comes to knowledge, understanding of the afterlife... How much do we really know? How much of that do we understand?
How much do we need to know and understand?

U know... I keep thinking how Christ welcomes children. They come with wisdom and understanding, they come with love...

PC123 · Sep 13, 2020

Ann-Marie said:

But speaking of the red letters... What does He say about the atonement? Does He say it's to pay for man's sins?
Perhaps u would know more... What comes to my mind is

just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many - Matthew 20:28

Ransom - a sum of money demanded or paid for the release of a captive (google)
What else does He say about it???

I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

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