Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Faith?

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Apr 2, 2020
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What I would like to know is how many of those people coming up with all this nonsense are churchmen. Are you part of the assembly of Saints? Just asking. Are you under a duly called and ordained Teacher that disciples or are you a go it alone type?


I think blue sleeps faster than Tuesday because soon the clear iguana holds the wind sauce.
Somehow that makes more sense than anything I've seen him post.
 

Athanasius377

Active member
Aug 20, 2020
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Northern Kentucky
I don't know if you ever read the testimony from dr Alberto Rivera.

Some of what he say, happen and he say before happen.

I remember some, I heard fro San Diego pricher

1. In the '60 he talk to his church, he said Jesuit will secretly infiltrate USA by donate presidential or congress campaign and you know the sign if Jesuit have majority people in congress is the presidential inauguration will face obelisk that is vatican God.
According to this San Diego preacher. It happen in 1984,

That make me believe Alberto not lie

2. He also say Vatican want Jerusalem because the Bible say Jesus will come in mount Zion. In Jerusalem, and pope is jesus on earth that is why Vatican secretly lobby UN to ask Israel not use Jerusalem as the capital city

https://www.americamagazine.org/pol...rns-new-tension-if-us-embassy-moved-jerusalem

That make me believe the anti christ is pope

And Alberto say that oath is real
Yep, another fraud. Here is a Cornerstone Magazine's expose:

https://web.archive.org/web/20051202084221/http://www.cornerstonemag.com/pages/show_page.asp?228

And from Christianity Today,
NEWS

Jack Chick’s Anti-Catholic Alberto Comic Book Is Exposed as a Fraud

A comic book produced by a fundamentalist publisher named Jack Chick is causing an uproar among Roman Catholics. It purports to be the true story of a Jesuit priest named Alberto Rivera, who was raised and trained in a Spanish Jesuit seminary, and whose job was to infiltrate and destroy Protestant churches. The comic book, titled Alberto, says the reason Protestant churches don’t speak out against Catholicism the way they should is that they are infiltrated by Jesuits.

The comic book has been so popular that Chick has published a sequel, Double Cross, which claims to be the true story of how the priest rescued his sister from a convent in England, where she was a nun, and where she was bleeding to death from flagellation and other mistreatment. The sequel also alleges that Kathryn Kuhlman was a secret agent of Rome and claims that Jim Jones, the leader of the Jonestown cult, was secretly a Jesuit.

Both magazines are saturated with anti-Catholic slurs and unsavory innuendo. The most astonishing charge is that the name of every Protestant is kept in a computer file in the Vatican, and that the Catholic church is preparing for a twentieth-century Inquisition.

The Catholic church is understandably upset. Its Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, based in Milwaukee, has asked the state attorney general’s office in California, where the magazines are published, to investigate Chick Publications for false advertising and consumer fraud. The attorney general’s office recently declined to do so.

Many Protestant bookstores carry small, comic-book-like Bible tracts published by Chick, as well as his earlier, full-size comics on Christian subjects. The Alberto magazine, however, has caused such a fuss that many bookstores have refused to sell it. To counteract that pressure. Chick published a special tract that he distributes free, in which he says Catholic propaganda teams pressure bookstore owners to remove Alberto, and that only a few “totally committed” gospel bookstores still dare to carry it.

A year ago, Alberto Rivera himself issued a sworn statement defending the allegations. He declared in part that, “Alberto is a true and actual account and I will face a court of law to prove the events actually took place.”

He may get his chance. This reporter’s investigation shows that not only was Rivera not a Jesuit priest, but also that he had two children during the time he claimed to be living a celibate life as a Jesuit. Neither, it seems, does he have a sister in England who was a nun. Rivera has been sought by police for writing bad checks in Hoboken, New Jersey, and for stealing a credit card in Florida. Those revelations taint the credibility of the fantastic stories Rivera tells in the comic books.

Alberto Rivera, also known as Alberto Romero, is a native of the Canary Islands. He has traveled widely and has been associated with numerous Christian organizations and churches, including several in California. He is being sued in a Los Angeles court at the present time by a man who said that Rivera, on behalf of the Hispanic Baptist Church which he started, borrowed $2,025 with which to invest in property, but never purchased the land. When the man asked for his money back, he received a receipt acknowledging his “contribution” of $2,025. . .



Metz, G., Clapp, R., Hopkins, J. M., Shuster, W. G., & Minnery, T. (1981). Jack Chick’s Anti-catholic Alberto Comic Book Is Exposed as a Fraud. Christianity Today, 25(5), 354–356.


I have to say, that was the lamest inquisition ever. If I were you, I would stick to things that are verifiable and not libel against another group.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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Yep, another fraud. Here is a Cornerstone Magazine's expose:

https://web.archive.org/web/20051202084221/http://www.cornerstonemag.com/pages/show_page.asp?228

And from Christianity Today,
NEWS

Jack Chick’s Anti-Catholic Alberto Comic Book Is Exposed as a Fraud

A comic book produced by a fundamentalist publisher named Jack Chick is causing an uproar among Roman Catholics. It purports to be the true story of a Jesuit priest named Alberto Rivera, who was raised and trained in a Spanish Jesuit seminary, and whose job was to infiltrate and destroy Protestant churches. The comic book, titled Alberto, says the reason Protestant churches don’t speak out against Catholicism the way they should is that they are infiltrated by Jesuits.

The comic book has been so popular that Chick has published a sequel, Double Cross, which claims to be the true story of how the priest rescued his sister from a convent in England, where she was a nun, and where she was bleeding to death from flagellation and other mistreatment. The sequel also alleges that Kathryn Kuhlman was a secret agent of Rome and claims that Jim Jones, the leader of the Jonestown cult, was secretly a Jesuit.

Both magazines are saturated with anti-Catholic slurs and unsavory innuendo. The most astonishing charge is that the name of every Protestant is kept in a computer file in the Vatican, and that the Catholic church is preparing for a twentieth-century Inquisition.

The Catholic church is understandably upset. Its Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, based in Milwaukee, has asked the state attorney general’s office in California, where the magazines are published, to investigate Chick Publications for false advertising and consumer fraud. The attorney general’s office recently declined to do so.

Many Protestant bookstores carry small, comic-book-like Bible tracts published by Chick, as well as his earlier, full-size comics on Christian subjects. The Alberto magazine, however, has caused such a fuss that many bookstores have refused to sell it. To counteract that pressure. Chick published a special tract that he distributes free, in which he says Catholic propaganda teams pressure bookstore owners to remove Alberto, and that only a few “totally committed” gospel bookstores still dare to carry it.

A year ago, Alberto Rivera himself issued a sworn statement defending the allegations. He declared in part that, “Alberto is a true and actual account and I will face a court of law to prove the events actually took place.”

He may get his chance. This reporter’s investigation shows that not only was Rivera not a Jesuit priest, but also that he had two children during the time he claimed to be living a celibate life as a Jesuit. Neither, it seems, does he have a sister in England who was a nun. Rivera has been sought by police for writing bad checks in Hoboken, New Jersey, and for stealing a credit card in Florida. Those revelations taint the credibility of the fantastic stories Rivera tells in the comic books.

Alberto Rivera, also known as Alberto Romero, is a native of the Canary Islands. He has traveled widely and has been associated with numerous Christian organizations and churches, including several in California. He is being sued in a Los Angeles court at the present time by a man who said that Rivera, on behalf of the Hispanic Baptist Church which he started, borrowed $2,025 with which to invest in property, but never purchased the land. When the man asked for his money back, he received a receipt acknowledging his “contribution” of $2,025. . .



Metz, G., Clapp, R., Hopkins, J. M., Shuster, W. G., & Minnery, T. (1981). Jack Chick’s Anti-catholic Alberto Comic Book Is Exposed as a Fraud. Christianity Today, 25(5), 354–356.


I have to say, that was the lamest inquisition ever. If I were you, I would stick to things that are verifiable and not libel against another group.
I do read about this and I conclude this is fraud not Alberto.
I was call chick about this and chick staff say, that chick write a letter to Canadian catholic churc 3 x ask what bank was Alberto check, so chick able to call,the bank for verification, and they don't answer.

Chick call Canadian police ask if there is criminal record for this fraud, and police don't have it

Again catholic have lie reputation

How about why Alberto know that American presidential inauguration will face obelisk ( Rome /Vatican God ) before it happen. WHY California court not take the case?
More likely they don't have a case and catholic did what she did before, lie
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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It's funny how many paint Constantine like some kind of archvillain, and it's rather surprising to see someone speaking poorly of Nicea when all it really did was state that denying Jesus' deity was heresy. Do you deny Jesus' deity?
Oh MY!!! Before this council was called the church looked to the people closest to the apostles training to settle questions. Like Acts telling of them going to James, brother of Christ to settle questions about what laws gentiles were to follow. Constantine used the same methods that government uses to solve questions. Before Constantine the government and the people's faith was not together, but people who followed Christ carefully followed only Christ, not worldly customs. Constantine untied them. Before Constantine the church carefully did not add anything to doctrine, Constantine said the Holy Spirit was in the council so they could add whatever they felt was right. Before some individual churches had Sunday services, after Constantine it was made law to use Sunday as the Sabbath. Passover was changed by law to Easter. Before Constantine, only people who truly loved the Lord were classed as Christian, after Constantine it was Christianity was made attractive to all and many had one foot in heaven and one in the world. The changes were many, not about the deity of Christ only.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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The title of the pope was stolen from the bishop of Alexandria. No Peter as the "bishop of Rome", or "pope" because there was no such thing in the first 300+ years of the church. So, no apostolic succession.

The church did not have the rites and rituals the RCC has today. Those were added centuries after. And most mean nothing.

The RCC set up a hierarchy which the early church didn't have. Jesus is the head of the church. He has called the following:

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up." Eph 4:11-12

Notice how there are NO priests? Priests died out after Jesus was resurrected. He did this because he became the high priest!

"Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledgeas our apostle and high priest." Hebrews 3:1

"We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20

There is no need for earthly priests, nor reliving the crucifixion over and over at the mass! Jesus paid the price already. We answer to Jesus, not a corrupt, bloated church like the RCC.

Then there is soteriology, or how we are saved. The RCC is terribly mistaken in the order of salvation which usurps God's authority as Saviour. This is the RCC order:

Baptized -> infant (not found even once in the Bible)

sanctification -> becoming holy

Death and purgatory -> a fictitious place where people have to stay till enough bought and paid for masses have been said to get you out. Except, no one knows when that is!

Justification -> this is when people are finally saved, after suffering the punishment for their sins.

Glorification -> ??

This is totally wrong. Here is the Protestant soteriology:

Justification by faith -> God saves us. See Romans 5:1-2 Not by works!

Sanctification -> the Holy Spirit, who has been in our hearts since we were justified, transforming us into the image of Christ. Not by works!

Romans 6:22 "But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life."
2 Thess 2:13 " But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Glorification -> when we are made perfect. Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Catholics have good charities, but is it just to gain more brownie points to make sure at the end, you go to heaven?

The RCC version of everything is by works! The Bible is clear salvation is by faith through grace. The RCC is literally wrong one every aspect of theology, except for their high Christiology.

"For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:8-10

(Sorry if someone else has gone through. I don't have the patience to read the whole thread!)
I can tell it's not the Catholic Church you refute.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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So you're answer is we are lead to all truth by the authority figures around us? (let me be specific here, for the believer with questions I speaking directly about those who are saved) It's honestly hard to see the answer to what I asked in your response, but if I asked you where do I go to get the true meaning of scripture, where do I go for answers? You say to the local body or the local church, correct? Also please break it down to the most direct answer. I'm a very simple man so I like baseline answers. Thank you by the way for the mutual respect in your response, these are meaningful conversations in my opinion where I actually learn from the conversation and grow. So thank you for that.
What I believe is what the Catholic Church teaches. The teaching is approved by those in authority.
The Catholic Church only has a few Scriptures that it insists on a particular meaning. Lots of leeway I find. There have been many times in my life that I came to understand something the Catholic Church taught that I couldn't believe. Faith builds each time.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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Did you mean between the doctrine of God and the oral traditions as doctrines of men? There a can be only one teaching master.

The doctrines of God are inspired from heaven they fall as rain comes down . The doctrines of men are earthly inspired of the father of lies. The doctrine of God are found in the Bible alone. The doctrines of men as a law of men are called the laws of the fathers, kings, prince,. popes

One direction. Heaven the storeroom of Christ's faith unseen to earth seen.

Deuteronomy 32:1-3 King James Version (KJV)Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Called the water of the word in the new testament .The doctrines Christ washes his bride the church with.

Catholics have their own book of Law CCC as oral traditions of men inspired from earth . It takes on the higher authroity making the word of God the lesser to no effect.. While Mormons in the same way have their the book of Mormon. or Moslem have the Koran. All doctrines of must be compared to the Bible.

The Bible in its entirety alone is the final authority in matters of faith, the unseen will of God that works in the believer..

One is our Holy Father. The teaching master
I guess I'll take that as a no.☺
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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What I believe is what the Catholic Church teaches. The teaching is approved by those in authority.
The Catholic Church only has a few Scriptures that it insists on a particular meaning. Lots of leeway I find. There have been many times in my life that I came to understand something the Catholic Church taught that I couldn't believe. Faith builds each time.
So you not believe what Jesus teach. .?

Catholic don't teach what Jesus teach so either you believe Jesus or catholic
 
Aug 14, 2019
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So you not believe what Jesus teach. .?

Catholic don't teach what Jesus teach so either you believe Jesus or catholic

You seem unable to shake off the straw Catholic Church you were indoctrinated in and now project.

To be relevant you must address the real Church.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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What I would like to know is how many of those people coming up with all this nonsense are churchmen. Are you part of the assembly of Saints? Just asking. Are you under a duly called and ordained Teacher that disciples or are you a go it alone type?


I think blue sleeps faster than Tuesday because soon the clear iguana holds the wind sauce.
I like the green one on Friday.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I guess I'll take that as a no.☺
I think I know the difference. Someone discovered the meaning of the doctrine of God. He is not bringing new ones .The bible is complete sealed with 7 seal with a warning not to add or subtract from the whole. Revelation is still the last chapter .

How would you view the difference between the development of doctrine and a new doctrine ?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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You seem unable to shake off the straw Catholic Church you were indoctrinated in and now project.

To be relevant you must address the real Church.
Real church ? The living walking temple of God, the body of born again believers? Or bricks and statues of dead men to watch over the building?

The real one is made up of many lively stones that make up the spiritual unseen house of God, the church.

The real one where men do not lord it over the non venerable pew sitters . But rather they walk by faith the unseen will of God found in sola scriptura. And not of the evil generation who walk by sight as if the kingdom of God did come by observing the temporal and not the unseen eternal .

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Somehow that makes more sense than anything I've seen him post.
Did you have a question? I think by him offering whatever you call the word mix, it just shows he has no interest in the subject matter.
 

Robertt

Well-known member
May 22, 2019
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Bahrain
Always interesting to read of how the Roman Catholic Church believe they were the first.

The Church of the new believers was run by the Group in Jerusalem . Paul still reported to them. He argues with them at times too LOL

Only the Roman Catholic Church claims Peter moved to Rome and became a leader of a church there,
Yet Peters ministry was in Babylon where he sent his Epistles from.

So no the Roman Catholics were not the first church.

Now as stated by our Roman Catholic member the Original poster. many churches have split from the Roman Catholic church too . Most of the main stream churches are simply breakaways of one form or another, This is a good thing. As people realized the errors of the Roman Catholic system they attempted reformation, sadly it didn't go far enough and they became another religious organisation.

But outside of this mainstream has always been the independents. Yes these too had members or leaders who also came out of mainstream.
But this is good, as the original disciples all came out of the Jewish Religion System.

So the oldest church is the one that followed Jesus for 3 years and then met together after his resurrection, in the upper room and when the Holy Spirit came thousands more joined.

Yes they all left their Religion of Judaism. Same as any true believer today needs to get out of any Religious movement and find a like minded body of believers who are following the Holy Spirit. Not following man, not following traditions. Demonstrating the Gifts of the Holy Spirit daily.

But we must all remember, most of the people in all churches are searching, they are not the devil, the system maybe of the devil, but the people are just lost sheep. So lets keep them all in our prayers.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Always interesting to read of how the Roman Catholic Church believe they were the first.

The Church of the new believers was run by the Group in Jerusalem . Paul still reported to them. He argues with them at times too LOL

Only the Roman Catholic Church claims Peter moved to Rome and became a leader of a church there,
Yet Peters ministry was in Babylon where he sent his Epistles from.

So no the Roman Catholics were not the first church.

Now as stated by our Roman Catholic member the Original poster. many churches have split from the Roman Catholic church too . Most of the main stream churches are simply breakaways of one form or another, This is a good thing. As people realized the errors of the Roman Catholic system they attempted reformation, sadly it didn't go far enough and they became another religious organisation.

But outside of this mainstream has always been the independents. Yes these too had members or leaders who also came out of mainstream.
But this is good, as the original disciples all came out of the Jewish Religion System.

So the oldest church is the one that followed Jesus for 3 years and then met together after his resurrection, in the upper room and when the Holy Spirit came thousands more joined.

Yes they all left their Religion of Judaism. Same as any true believer today needs to get out of any Religious movement and find a like minded body of believers who are following the Holy Spirit. Not following man, not following traditions. Demonstrating the Gifts of the Holy Spirit daily.

But we must all remember, most of the people in all churches are searching, they are not the devil, the system maybe of the devil, but the people are just lost sheep. So lets keep them all in our prayers.

Yes, the first mentioned sect or denomination is the Nazarene. The Catholic sect is not listed. We walk by faith, the unseen eternal . It working in us inform us of those who say we do need a man to teach us. Identifying them as antichrists.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:26-27
 

Athanasius377

Active member
Aug 20, 2020
206
86
28
Northern Kentucky
I do read about this and I conclude this is fraud not Alberto.
I was call chick about this and chick staff say, that chick write a letter to Canadian catholic churc 3 x ask what bank was Alberto check, so chick able to call,the bank for verification, and they don't answer.

Chick call Canadian police ask if there is criminal record for this fraud, and police don't have it

Again catholic have lie reputation

How about why Alberto know that American presidential inauguration will face obelisk ( Rome /Vatican God ) before it happen. WHY California court not take the case?
More likely they don't have a case and catholic did what she did before, lie
I’ve provided you with two different sources with complete citations. And Jack Chick was a disturbed individual who seemed sincere just gullible. But I will leave with this, if the Vatican was so powerful and all knowing why is it that All their churches are emptying out in Europe and the Americas? That has to be the lamest plan for world domination ever.
ps. I agree that the office of Pope is unbiblical and anti-Christ. I disagree and the overwhelming evidence shows otherwise that the pope and the Roman church are involved in some sort of giant conspiracy. You know you’re dealing with a pseudo conspiracy when you try and force the other side to prove a negative. Just saying.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
You seem unable to shake off the straw Catholic Church you were indoctrinated in and now project.

To be relevant you must address the real Church.
You seem unable to shake off the straw Catholic Church you were indoctrinated in and now project.

To be relevant you must address the real Church.
For sure catholic not teach the real gospel, her gospel not Jesus gospel, purgatory, pray to Mary. That is not real gospel
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
I’ve provided you with two different sources with complete citations. And Jack Chick was a disturbed individual who seemed sincere just gullible. But I will leave with this, if the Vatican was so powerful and all knowing why is it that All their churches are emptying out in Europe and the Americas? That has to be the lamest plan for world domination ever.
ps. I agree that the office of Pope is unbiblical and anti-Christ. I disagree and the overwhelming evidence shows otherwise that the pope and the Roman church are involved in some sort of giant conspiracy. You know you’re dealing with a pseudo conspiracy when you try and force the other side to prove a negative. Just saying.
If you agree that pope is antichrist, than empty church not make any different. Power come from money.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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If you agree that pope is antichrist, than empty church not make any different. e
The Pope as anti-Christ is biblical but not as you see it.

Matth. 16:23
He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

It's fitting for judgement to begin with the Church.