"The Soul That Sinneth, It SHALL Die."

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Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#21
Correct. Had Ellen G. White (or whoever) carefully checked the incorrect translation of Sheol and Hades as "the grave" or "the pit" (in the KJV), when Sheol/Hades is in "the heart of the earth", or "the lower parts of the earth" (or near the core of the earth), a lot of doctrinal error could have been avoided. There are no souls sleeping in the ground six feet under the surface. There is just plain old dust, "for dust thou art, and into dust shalt thou return".

Physical death is THE SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body. Souls either go directly to Heaven to be with Christ, or directly to Hades to await judgment.

The Second Death is ETERNAL SEPARATION of the individual from God (in the Lake of Fire), "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
No need to guess, the scripture below is very clear, 7th day Adventist deny the teaching below.

Luke 16:22-25KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#22
Correct. Had Ellen G. White (or whoever) carefully checked the incorrect translation of Sheol and Hades as "the grave" or "the pit" (in the KJV), when Sheol/Hades is in "the heart of the earth", or "the lower parts of the earth" (or near the core of the earth), a lot of doctrinal error could have been avoided. There are no souls sleeping in the ground six feet under the surface. There is just plain old dust, "for dust thou art, and into dust shalt thou return".

Physical death is THE SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body. Souls either go directly to Heaven to be with Christ, or directly to Hades to await judgment.

The Second Death is ETERNAL SEPARATION of the individual from God (in the Lake of Fire), "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
yes because the spirit God gave man Is eternal

we have an eternal Kingdom With the lord

or

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

our spirit is eternal either way
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#23
No need to guess, the scripture below is very clear, 7th day Adventist deny the teaching below.

Luke 16:22-25KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
I find it interesting how much is there too hell and heaven exist now while the earth continues when our bodies die , our spirits go to either place until the judgement and restoration of earth

as he is in hell hes wanting someone to go warn those still in the world that it’s real those he cared about . Showing a simultaneous existence of heaven hell and the world we know . Jesus teachings and parables are so rich
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#24
I find it interesting how much is there too hell and heaven exist now while the earth continues when our bodies die , our spirits go to either place until the judgement and restoration of earth

as he is in hell hes wanting someone to go warn those still in the world that it’s real those he cared about . Showing a simultaneous existence of heaven hell and the world we know . Jesus teachings and parables are so rich
Just a couple mentions?

1. Many mistake hell as being the Eternal lake of fire, it isnt, hell will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire, which is eternal Rev 20:11-15

2. I believe the heaven and earth will be dissolved by the Lords fire in judgement at the second coming,I believe it will be a (New Creation) in the new heaven,earth, jerusalem
2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 20:1-5
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#25
Just a couple mentions?

1. Many mistake hell as being the Eternal lake of fire, it isnt, hell will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire, which is eternal Rev 20:11-15

2. I believe the heaven and earth will be dissolved by the Lords fire in judgement at the second coming,I believe it will be a (New Creation) in the new heaven,earth, jerusalem
2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 20:1-5
that’s exactly My faith brother

the world we live in now is going to end , our home is the place Jesus went to prepare for us until he returns to earth and restores heaven and earth like this

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we walk by faith , and faith comes from Hearing the word
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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#26
guess the angel that ellen white claimed visited her did not tell her this..
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,641
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#27
Correct. Had Ellen G. White (or whoever) carefully checked the incorrect translation of Sheol and Hades as "the grave" or "the pit" (in the KJV), when Sheol/Hades is in "the heart of the earth", or "the lower parts of the earth" (or near the core of the earth), a lot of doctrinal error could have been avoided. There are no souls sleeping in the ground six feet under the surface. There is just plain old dust, "for dust thou art, and into dust shalt thou return".

Physical death is THE SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body. Souls either go directly to Heaven to be with Christ, or directly to Hades to await judgment.

The Second Death is ETERNAL SEPARATION of the individual from God (in the Lake of Fire), "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
guess the angel that ellen white claimed that visited her forgot to tell her this..
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#28
guess the angel that ellen white claimed visited her did not tell her this..
You missed out, that was Ellen's vision #1987 volume 46, page 52, paragraph 3, subsection c

Please correct me if I'm wrong? o_O

Shouldn't be hard, she only claimed to have 2,000 visions, Smiles!
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#29
No my brother. The union of TWO things CREATED a third. That is the grammar of Genesis 2:7. My one example you left unanswered. At the death of our Lord Jesus, "Who took the form of a MAN", His BODY was placed in a sepulcher, His SPIRIT was given UP to His Father, but HE went to the heart of the earth. Of this event, Acts Chapter 2:27 and 31 tell us that God, "... will not leave my SOUL in HADES". This echoes Psalm 16:10. And in His retributive punishment on men in Matthew 10:28 the body and soul are joined by the conjunction "and". The conjunction "AND", we are told by language scholars, is copulative, cumulative and sequential. "The bread AND the butter" - two different things.
I thought I answered it, but I will reiterate:

A soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life - it goes out of existence at the disunion of the same.

The "soul" is the "person", the "I", the "ego", the "self". It is not some entity that flies off at death, but ceases to be at death.

"Soul" means "life" and death is the ABSENCE of life, not the continuation thereof. A "Soul not left in hades" or a soul that was "departing" Rachel, or a soul that "shall mourn in him" is simply a poetic way of saying a person is dead in the grave, not left in the grave, or in the case of Rachel, her life was departing her body.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#30
Thanks for the response

(The Soul Ceases To Exist)?

You deny a literal place of torment upon death (Hell)
What in my response suggests this? Of course there is a place of torment. Some are beaten with few stripes, others many, the devil the most, but eventually all pass out of existence.

If the torment were eternal, would not there always be death, suffering, crying, and pain, things which Revelation 19 say will pass away?

If the wages of our sin is eternal torment, wouldn't Jesus have to be eternally tormented in order to spare us?

No, the wages of sin is not eternal torment, but DEATH. Jesus died for our sins, but because there was no sin Him, God could raise Him from the dead and He is alive forevermore -- but as for the wicked, they will suffer torment until the Second Death when their Breath of Life returns to God, their Body burns up into ashes, and they pass out of existence for all eternity in a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Your belief and teaching is the same as 7th Day Adventist and JW's in this denial.
Well, your belief is Roman Catholicism which is baptized paganism whether you know it or not. Luther as well as many many Protestant Reformers believed what I present here as sound Biblical doctrine and condemned your position as non-Biblical and I completely agree with them. I hope that you reconsider your position and come to realize that we've all been deceived by the Serpent who told the very first lie in the Bible, "Thou shalt not SURELY die." Today, people are DEATHLY AFRAID to spend the night in a graveyard, a place of total safety because even criminals are too scared to go there at night. The only thing there of any concern might be demons which masquerade as "spirits of our departed loved ones", but anyone that knows the truth can immediately send them back to from whence they came in the name of Jesus.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
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#31
yes because the spirit God gave man Is eternal

we have an eternal Kingdom With the lord

or

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

our spirit is eternal either way
God alone dwells in immortality.

For this mortal must put on immortality. So when this mortal has put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Anaheim, Cali.
#32
God alone dwells in immortality.

For this mortal must put on immortality. So when this mortal has put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Outstanding!
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#33
Phoneman is a 7th day dentist. Nuff said
A PROUD Seventh-day Adventist, FYI.

Anyone who argues "immortal soul" and "eternal torment" doctrine should be ashamed to do so, seeing that Paul PLAINLY says in 1 Timothy 6:16 KJV that ONLY Christ has immortality and in Romans 2:5-7 KJV says immortality is granted ONLY in the day of judgment to those who seek for it, which the wicked most certainly do not.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#34
The present tense indicates that all human beings in their natural state are spiritually dead. Therefore the New Birth is an absolute necessity in order to enter and see the Kingdom of God (John 3).

However, "the Second Death" was also included in "The Soul That Sinneth, It SHALL Die." And we read about the Second Death in connection with the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire (Rev 20).

Since you are SDA (to the best of my knowledge), you do not believe in an eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire). But it is a biblical fact.
Fact?

"There shall be NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away."

"...and the world PASSETH AWAY and the lust thereof, but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever."

"To them who by patience in well doing SEEK FOR...IMMORTALITY (will be granted) eternal life."

"Therefore, I will bring a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, I will bring thee to ashes...and NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANYMORE."

"Yet a little while and the wicked SHALL NOT BE."

"They shall drink of the cup, and shall swallow it down, and shall BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NOT BEEN."

"...for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet."


It's awesome to never have to resort to theological identity politics, but to just utilize Bible truth to expose theological skullduggery.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#35
Well you could be right after all we are talking about a present death and a an everlasting one and we do refer ourselves to bbe once being dead but now are alive. I suppose I didn't really think about the terms being used and their actual usage
ironic for someone who places the importance of context and placement of words
The world loves to say, "The devil is in the details" but when it comes to Biblical truth, praise God that the details are where we find Him so often buried over with Satanic lies. For century after century, Christians were led to believe their loved ones were suffering in Purgatory and that giving money to the church would set them free...until Luther got busy with the details and so exposed the error of immortality of the soul and eternal torment that for his trouble, the church kicked him out and put a price on his head.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#36
Correct. Had Ellen G. White (or whoever) carefully checked the incorrect translation of Sheol and Hades as "the grave" or "the pit" (in the KJV), when Sheol/Hades is in "the heart of the earth", or "the lower parts of the earth" (or near the core of the earth), a lot of doctrinal error could have been avoided.
Your argument which is bound up in the question of proximity is PURELY SUBJECTIVE. Show us where it means "near the core of the Earth", please. "Hades" and "Sheol" are words that simply mean under the ground where the dead are placed." Why will you not believe the wisest man in the world when he says, "The living know that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING"?

It is you who reject the plain text of Genesis 2:7 KJV which says the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the UNION of the Body and the Breath of Life, because to do so is to be confronted with the insurmountable problem of explaining how this same Soul can continue to exist at the DISUNION of the same.
There are no souls sleeping in the ground six feet under the surface. There is just plain old dust, "for dust thou art, and into dust shalt thou return".

"Our friend Lazarus sleepeth...Then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is DEAD."
"Consider me and hear me, O my God. Lighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death."
Physical death is THE SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body. Souls either go directly to Heaven to be with Christ, or directly to Hades to await judgment.

The Second Death is ETERNAL SEPARATION of the individual from God (in the Lake of Fire), "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".
No, brother, death is the CESSATION OF LIFE when the Spirit returns to God, the Body returns to the Earth, and the Soul ceases to be.

Does light continue to shine on another plane of existence when you remove the current from the bulb, or does it cease to exist?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#37
God alone dwells in immortality.

For this mortal must put on immortality. So when this mortal has put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
what’s your point though ?

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:21-22, 24‬ ‭
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
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#38
what’s your point though ?

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:21-22, 24‬
Exactly: only those who believe attain to life ever after.

Don't confuse being spiritually dead (a state we are all born into)
with the destruction of both body and soul (the fate of unbelievers).
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#39
Your argument which is bound up in the question of proximity is PURELY SUBJECTIVE. Show us where it means "near the core of the Earth", please. "Hades" and "Sheol" are words that simply mean under the ground where the dead are placed." Why will you not believe the wisest man in the world when he says, "The living know that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING"?
I trust the words of Christ (objective truth) have total authority for in your estimation.

So let's go to the statements of the Lord Jesus Christ to settle the issue. And then let us connect that to the period between the crucifixion and the resurrection to see where Jesus was for three day ad three nights (when He preached to the spirits in prison).

But he [Christ] answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas [Jonah] was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:39,40)

This is also called "the lower parts of the earth" by Paul in Ephesians 4:9, where he says that Christ "descended" to the lower parts of the earth. Therefore it is perfectly legitimate to say that that would be near the core of the earth.

What was Christ speaking about? He was referring to the prophecy of David in Psalm 16:10 (about 1000 years earlier), which Peter would quote in Acts 2:27 (on the day of Pentecost), regarding the fact that the soul and spirit of Christ would not be left in Sheol/Hades but that He would be resurrected. The meanings of these words will be given from the lexicons to prove that Sheol/Hades is in the heart of the earth.

Psalm 16:10: Sheol incorrectly translated as "hell": For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
כִּ֤י ׀ לֹא־תַעֲזֹ֣ב נַפְשִׁ֣י לִשְׁאֹ֑ול לֹֽא־תִתֵּ֥ן חֲ֝סִידְךָ֗ לִרְאֹ֥ות שָֽׁחַת ׃

Acts 2:27: Hades incorrectly translated as "hell": Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, [HADES] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου* (ᾅδην) , οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν.

Now we turn to the lexicons and concordances:

Strong's Concordance
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Brown-Driver-Briggs
שְׁאָ֫לָה Isaiah 7:11 see שְׁאוֺל 1 below
שְׁאוֺל, שְׁאֹל noun feminine Psalm 86:13 (apparently masculine Job 26:6 compare Isaiah 14:9, see AlbrZAW xvi(1896), 51) She®°ôl, underworld

Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits

Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.
Thayer's: 2. an appellative, Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

Now that we know that Sheol/Hades is NOT hell, but the place of departed souls and spirits, we also know that this is DEFINITELY NOT the grave. Cadavers go into graves, not souls and spirits. The body of Christ was in His tomb, but where was His soul and spirit? In Sheol/Hades. "in the heart of the earth". Which means that you have to totally abandon your ideas about the afterlife.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#40
Exactly: only those who believe attain to life ever after.

Don't confuse being spiritually dead (a state we are all born into)
with the destruction of both body and soul (the fate of unbelievers).
there are two deaths one according to our flesh . This is the death we are all born into because of mans sin , not because God made us in death

when we die in this life we aren’t dead , Wes rent asleep our spirit parts from the flesh that returns to the dust from where it came at creation , and the spirit in man returns to God for judgement

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭


“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The judgement is upon the living spirit so even an unbeliever doesn’t end at death

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-26‬ ‭

would you say they both died ? And Abraham also has died ? Yet they both still were alive ? And even conscious seeing and hearing speaking , if you read on the one in hell is even concerned that his family doesn’t come there not believing . That’s not an image of peaceful rest or non existence at least , to me it suggests not “ confusion” but the truth that there are two deaths for man because one is physical and the other spiritual the spirit doesn’t die with the flesh it endures because it came from God who you are right to poi t out alone has immortality.

by Christ’s word it shall be both good and bad will be resurrected From death to be judged

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the second death for the spirit is eternal
Torment like hell

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that day is the same day as this

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

spirit doesn’t die the second death is permanent separation from God , lost forever suffering what we’ve sown by following Satans will rather than Gods

when you say God is immortal the Bible says he made man in his own image and breathed life into the mans body he formed of the dust the spiritual part of man cane from the immortal one. Whether we serve Satan or God in this world will determine our eternal home

but VERY importantly I’m not an authority , that’s just how I myself believe what I believe and also why all of th one kinda of scriptures like the ones I shared but the way to escape death is to accept eternal Life even though we gave it away through sin , we can repent and believe the gospel and be redeemed and reconciled to God for eternity











and the second death we can escape by accepting Gods offer