Flesh (Old Man) VS Spirit (New Man): Difficult Scriptures explained by Pastor Ralph Arnold

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Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#41
Jun 30, 2015
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#41
Guojing said:
Your first point is not necessarily true.
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If Jesus could not truly be tempted, His "temptation"... wasn't really temptation! This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Scripture clearly states that Jesus was "tempted in every way". If He could not sin, He was not truly tempted. Logically, it is impossible for a volitional entity to be tempted to do what he/she/it is simply unable to do.

Guojing said:
For your 2nd point, aren't all saved believers now sealed with the Holy Spirit? Yet, we still sin correct?
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Yes, and yes.

Guojing said:
What happened after we get our new body at the rapture/2nd coming of Christ? Do you think we will still choose to sin then?
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When we get our new bodies, no, I don't think we will still choose to sin.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#42
Jan 12, 2019
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#42
Dino246 said:
If Jesus could not truly be tempted, His "temptation"... wasn't really temptation! This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Scripture clearly states that Jesus was "tempted in every way". If He could not sin, He was not truly tempted. Logically, it is impossible for a volitional entity to be tempted to do what he/she/it is simply unable to do.


Yes, and yes.


When we get our new bodies, no, I don't think we will still choose to sin.
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Jesus in his first coming did not have the flesh in his body, so temptation would not have worked on him.

It will be the same for us after we got our new bodies.

It does not mean we cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted I agree, I am saying he could not have sinned because it will not work on him
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#43
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
13,785
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#43
Guojing said:
Jesus in his first coming did not have the flesh in his body, so temptation would not have worked on him.

It will be the same for us after we got our new bodies.

It does not mean we cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted I agree, I am saying he could not have sinned because it will not work on him
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I think your assertion is entirely speculative and completely lacking in scriptural support.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#44
#44
Guojing said:
Jesus in his first coming did not have the flesh in his body, so temptation would not have worked on him.
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Wasn't that one of the ancient heresies that sparked some of the first councils in church history?
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#45
#45
Guojing said:
Jesus in his first coming did not have the flesh in his body, so temptation would not have worked on him.

It will be the same for us after we got our new bodies.

It does not mean we cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted I agree, I am saying he could not have sinned because it will not work on him
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Docetism - one of the earliest Christian sectarian doctrines, affirming that Christ did not have a real or natural body.
Docetism from greek (it seemed, or appeared) This was an important concept in gnosticism also.

...who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#46
Jan 12, 2019
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#46
Scribe said:
Docetism - one of the earliest Christian sectarian doctrines, affirming that Christ did not have a real or natural body.
Docetism from greek (it seemed, or appeared) This was an important concept in gnosticism also.

...who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
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Don't twist my words.

Jesus had a human body, it just did not have the "old man, the sinful nature, the flesh" that all of us still have now.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#47
Jan 12, 2019
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#47
Dino246 said:
I think your assertion is entirely speculative and completely lacking in scriptural support.
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There are a number of Christians, in this forum, who apparently believe that Jesus could actually be tempted to sin in his first coming on Earth.

Instead, my point was that the impeccability of Jesus is the correct doctrine to hold, otherwise you would have to conclude that, even after we get our new bodies, we might actually be tempted to sin too.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#48
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
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#48
Guojing said:
There are a number of Christians, in this forum, who apparently believe that Jesus could actually be tempted to sin in his first coming on Earth.

Instead, my point was that the impeccability of Jesus is the correct doctrine to hold, otherwise you would have to conclude that, even after we get our new bodies, we might actually be tempted to sin too.
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Actually, I don't hold that Jesus' body on earth was equivalent to our future 'glorified' bodies. He bled and died, but after glorification, we won't. I hold to the actual sinlessness of Jesus, not to the impossibility of Him committing sin.

Scripture does not say that He could not sin; it says that He did not sin.

So, I don't think your argument holds any water.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#49
#49
Guojing said:
Don't twist my words.

Jesus had a human body, it just did not have the "old man, the sinful nature, the flesh" that all of us still have now.
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Ok.. that would be the doctrine that says Jesus did not inherit original sin from Adam. You have to be careful what you say around here. :)
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#50
Jan 12, 2019
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#50
Dino246 said:
Actually, I don't hold that Jesus' body on earth was equivalent to our future 'glorified' bodies. He bled and died, but after glorification, we won't. I hold to the actual sinlessness of Jesus, not to the impossibility of Him committing sin.

Scripture does not say that He could not sin; it says that He did not sin.

So, I don't think your argument holds any water.
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That scripture passage, Hebrews 4:15, sin there is a noun, and not a verb.

You may want to double check
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#51
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
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#51
Guojing said:
That scripture passage, Hebrews 4:15, sin there is a noun, and not a verb.

You may want to double check
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It wouldn't change my position in the least.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#52
Dec 6, 2016
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#52
All this pulling and tugging at scripture makes my head spin. I go back to a simple way of understanding.

We are made righteous and sin free through Christ.

1 Cor. 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

But if we say we are sin free, we lie.

1 John 1:8 8 If we say that we have no sin, we lie to ourselves and the truth is not in us.

We repent of our sin, meaning we turn over our will to sin to Christ.

Matt. 3:2 Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Even though we still sin, our will is not to sin, for we have repented. We always need Christ, but we always are righteous through Christ.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#56
#56
throughfaith said:
We have to think when quoting things before or after the cross . Things are dramatically different before and After
.
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I don't agree with your hermeneutics. Neither do most of Christendom. The verse I quoted I will preach like Jesus did. And I do. I will preach as much about hell as Jesus did.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#57
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
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#57
Guojing said:
It changes your doctrine on "it says that He did not sin."

You are using sin as a verb there.
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Verb or noun, the sense is unchanged. Whether Jesus "did not sin" or "was without sin", it means the same thing, and neither means that He could not sin.

So, instead of arguing over irrelevant semantics, how about you accept the soundness of my position. :)
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#58
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#58
Scribe said:
I don't agree with your hermeneutics. Neither do most of Christendom. The verse I quoted I will preach like Jesus did. And I do. I will preach as much about hell as Jesus did.
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I'm just thankful I believed this side of the cross . Being a gentile and all .
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
#59
Sep 19, 2011
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#59
Scribe said:
I am concerned. Does he think Christians who are born again can fulfil the lusts of the flesh and that the flesh will be destroyed for that but their spirit will be innocent of the crime and still go to heaven?
There have been teachings like that since the Nicolaitans.
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Scribe, the man, Ralph Arnold, who is doing the teaching, believes in the Bible Doctrine of Eternal Security. And yes, a born again Christian can fulfil the lust of the flesh, if he is walking in the flesh (see Galatians 5).


When we walk after the flesh, we are capable of committing any of the works of the flesh (i.e. Adultery, Fornication, Uncleanness, Lasciviousness, Witchcraft, Envyings, Murder, Hatred, Wrath, Strife, Emulations, Revellings), and so forth. Doing any of those works of the flesh is the PRODUCT of walking after the flesh.

If we walk in the Spirit, we will not do any of those works of the flesh. But rather, we will produce the fruit of the Spirit in our lives (Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, and Temperance).


If a Christian does fulfil the lust of the flesh, he is still saved. Since he cannot lose his salvation, but he will reap what he sows according the FLESH. Hence, he will be judged after the flesh. But his soul and spirit are not affected.
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
#60
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
63
#60
Scribe said:
Consider this verse: 2 Cor 7:1
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

This makes it clear that our spirits need to be cleansed from defilement as well as our bodies and this is directed to saved people who are born again / have a born again spirit. Therefore it is not good hermeneutics that he is presenting when he says that our spirit cannot sin. This verse destroys his argument. Careful what you hear. The "our spirit cannot sin and is not guilty no matter what we do with our body" teaching has been in the church from the beginning and is what the Nicolaitanes might have taught according on one the church fathers who wrote about them centuries later. No one really knows what they taught but the fact that this "your spirit cannot be guilty of the sin of your flesh' was blamed on them early in church history reveals how ancient this false doctrine is. The same demons that were behind it then are still active. They are using new teachers and dressing it up but it is the same old ancient Epicureanism syncretic falsity.

And also this one:
1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
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Scribe, when brother Ralph Yankee Arnold, says that our spirit cannot sin, what he is referring to is our NEW MAN. The New Man cannot sin because it is born of God (1 John 3:9) and born of the Holy Scripture (1 peter 1:23). And since God and His word, the Holy Scripture, does not sin and cannot sin, therefore our New Nature also cannot sin. And if it cannot sin, it cannot die. And since it cannot die, it will live on forever. Hence, once we are born again (i.e. Born of God), we are a child of God forever. And so what Pastor Ralph Arnold states in the video is very true. Our New Man cannot sin. Our New Man contains the very righteousness and holiness of God Himself and also of His word, the blessed Holy Scripture. The New Man only wants to live holy and do that which is right and pleasing in the sight of God.

The Old Man (our Flesh), also called the Old Adamic Nature, or Sin Nature, does sin and all it wants to do is sin and go after the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of Life. Hence, when we walk in the flesh, we will sin because we are yielding to the Flesh (our Old Man)

But when we walk in the Spirit, we will not sin, since we are yielding to the New Man and to the Holy Spirit living inside of us.
 
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