A Divided Church?

The problem is that there appear to be very few in the church institutions who are able to shepherd the newborn babes in Christ beyond the “first principals.” They teach the basic doctrines (that is good) but leave it there. The unanswered question remains: “where to from here”?

I feel that this is usually because that many of the “shepherds” have themselves grown up in those environments and have not been able to advance beyond these boundaries to any significant degree.

Well said. Good job.

I have forgotten what it was as it was such a long time ago.

I feel that this is usually because that many of the “shepherds” have themselves grown up in those environments and have not been able to advance beyond these boundaries to any significant degree.

We should not forget that it is because the New Testament church pattern has generally been abandoned that there are few genuine shepherds in the churches.

Chances are that the problem will remain and become worse, since the preachers have also (a) abandoned the true Bible and gone after corrupt modern versions, (b) stopped teaching Bible doctrine from Scripture and (c) allowed the customs and whims of the world to enter into the churches.

We should not forget that it is because the New Testament church pattern has generally been abandoned that there are few genuine shepherds in the churches.

Chances are that the problem will remain and become worse, since the preachers have also (a) abandoned the true Bible and gone after corrupt modern versions, (b) stopped teaching Bible doctrine from Scripture and (c) allowed the customs and whims of the world to enter into the churches.

I agree that there are many shepherds that are teaching false doctrines, and are not able to feed the newborn babes with the nourishment that they need to grow into maturity, but the shepherds in the true church, the visible church, the remnant, are very capable of teaching the doctrine that Jesus taught. The purpose of the shepherds is not to save people eternally, but to deliver (save) newborn babes in Christ from their lack of knowledge of the gospel. The scriptures do not inform us how we are to get saved eternally, but they do inform us how that we are saved eternally by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.

The question remains: “whereto from here”?
—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12‑13, NIV)

We are to “work out our salvation.” Yet we cannot do this until we have an understanding of what God is working within us and why.

To start, he is sharing his nature with us.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, … (2 Peter 1:4, NIV)

Then he has given us the gift of his righteousness.
…how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! (Romans 5:17, NIV)

Our faith in what he has provided for us is the starting point. As we allow ourselves to be “led by the Spirit we start to find answers to such questions as “how is God planning to express his life in me”?
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. (Romans 8:14, NIV)

Learning to yield ourselves to what God is doing within us provides a solid path for our “way forward.”
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10, NIV)

It is when we allow ourselves to get involved in such debates as “the Bible translation I read is better than yours” that we start to loose the plot. This is the sort if thing being referred to in 2 Timothy 2:23.

Most pastors are not teachers. Apart from anything else, the job of a teacher is to disciple. The fact that the church does not recognize the ministry of teacher, it is very difficult for any church to disciple. For many churches being Christian is a part-time occupation which you fit in around your other non-christian activity.

A church that is following the precepts of scripture will ditch the Sunday meeting in favour of the four pillars of the church. Namely, teaching, fellowship, prayer and communal meals. If churches made Sunday a day set aside to achieve these things they would be much more effective and powerful.

I was part of a church in the UK for 10 years that spent all day in fellowship with each other on Sunday. It certainly fired you up for the rest of the week.

Thanks for the response, I didnt notice your background, sorry for the false identity.

I would find myself favoring the Baptist lineage also

I read a tract one, (The Trail of Blood) seen below, pretty interesting showing g the Baptist Lineage.

Wikipedia: The Trail of Blood, a 1931 book by American Southern Baptist minister James Milton Carroll (1852-1931), comprising a collection of five lectures he gave on the history of Baptist churches, which he presented as a succession from the first Christians.

Timeline from 'The Trail of Blood

See also: Proto-Protestantism
The full title is The Trail of Blood: Following the Christians Down through the Centuries: or, The History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ, Their Founder, to the Present Day.[1] Carroll presents modern Baptists as the direct successors of a strain of Christianity dating to apostolic times, reflecting a Landmarkist view first promoted in the mid-nineteenth century by James Robinson Graves (1820-1893). Graves had started an influential movement in Tennessee and the western states. The Landmark controversy divided many Baptists, and ultimately led to the formation of the American Baptist Association in 1924, as well as of Gospel Missions[citation needed] and unaffiliated churches. This is a belief called Baptist successionism.
Carroll claims that modern Baptists descend from such earlier groups as:

• the Waldensians (founded in the 1170s, based in the Cottian Alps)
• the Cathari (or Novatianists) (founded in the 3rd century)
• the Paulicians (founded c. 650 in Armenia)
• the Donatists (originating in North Africa in the 4th century)

Carroll acknowledges a number of other writers, including G.H. Orchard (1796–1861) and John T. Christian (1854-1925). The title is taken from James Robinson Graves' The Trilemma.[1] The book was published in the year Carroll died.
James Edward McGoldrick wrote a response to Carroll's work called Baptist Successionism which gave researched opposition to the theory of "Baptist successionism."[citation needed]
As of 2010 Ashland Avenue Baptist Church in Lexington, Kentucky held the copyright to Carroll's book.[

Interesting read. Thanks for sharing. I, however, don't see a way to verify the validity of this, nor a necessity to verify this although it would be nice.

Where I am now is trying to differentiate today between general baptists and particular baptists. This difference is not noted or indicated anymore it seems, but I believe it still exists.

It definitely appears that some branches within baptists are particular. Especially if they have a confession of faith, which is very similar to the Wesminster Confession of Faith. Other indicators are like I have seen with the primitive baptists that they insist the bread must be unleavened and the wine having alcoholic content. These things although not confirmative do indicate that primitive baptists are particular and thus have not completely broken from the Anglican Church.

At current it seems the Southern Baptist Convention is the last and/or best bastion of the general baptist beliefs. However, I know it hyper-calvinism is influxing and with it adherance to doctinal statesments. The other branch within Baptists I am more interested in learning about is GARB.

What is your application of "ditch the Sunday meeting"?

Direct Questions?

1. Do you believe Daniel's Abomination in Matthew 24:15 is fulfilled?

2. Do you believe the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24:21 is fulfilled?

Popes are not apostles or prophets. They are "vicars of Christ" (albeit falsely).

According to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:
(Latin Vicarius Christi).

A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19.

In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him.

Thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). He also declares that Christ has given such power only to His Vicar Peter and his successors (cap. "Quanto", 3, ibid.), and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ.

How does Marxist Pope Francis fit this definition? And who's going to fire him?

Most pastors are not teachers. Apart from anything else, the job of a teacher is to disciple. The fact that the church does not recognize the ministry of teacher, it is very difficult for any church to disciple. For many churches being Christian is a part-time occupation which you fit in around your other non-christian activity.

A church that is following the precepts of scripture will ditch the Sunday meeting in favour of the four pillars of the church. Namely, teaching, fellowship, prayer and communal meals. If churches made Sunday a day set aside to achieve these things they would be much more effective and powerful.

I was part of a church in the UK for 10 years that spent all day in fellowship with each other on Sunday. It certainly fired you up for the rest of the week.

Has Matthew 24:26 been fulfilled or partially fulfilled?

Matthew 24:26
New International Version
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
King James Bible
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

I believe Matthew 24:26 is a future event unfulfilled, when the antichrist has taken his seat, the warning is against the deception seen in Rev 13:13-14 below

Matthew 24:26 (Future) Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:24-26KJV
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

I believe Matthew 24:26 is a future event unfulfilled, when the antichrist has taken his seat, the warning is against the deception seen in Rev 13:13-14 below

Matthew 24:26 (Future) Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:24-26KJV
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The Altar and Tabernacle are the holiest places and the inner rooms of the catholic temple. They are claiming that Christ is there. Believe it not!!! Matthew 24:26 -- FULFILLED --

Altar Lamp
In many Christian churches there is an altar lamp, also known as a chancel lamp, which is found in the chancel (sanctuary), either hanging or fixed. In Anglican, Old Catholic and Roman Catholic churches, the chancel lamp burns before a tabernacle or ambry to demonstrate the belief that Christ is present there through His Real Presence
With influence from Judaism in the Old Testament, God told Moses that a lamp filled with the pure oil should perpetually burn in the Tabernacle (Ex 27:20-21). This is the precedent for the custom in the Anglican Church and Catholic Church of burning a candle (at all times) before the tabernacle – the house where the Eucharistic Body of Christ is reserved under lock and key.

Tabernacle
A tabernacle is a fixed, locked box in which, in some Christian churches, the Eucharist is "reserved" (stored). A less obvious container for the same purpose, set into a wall, is called an aumbry. The tabernacle should be securely fixed to the altar or (shelf), but away from the wall so that the conopaeum (a veil used to cover it when it contains the blessed sacrament) can completely surround it. The veil may be white or varying in liturgical colour.

the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist
is the doctrine that Jesus is present in the Eucharist, not merely symbolically or metaphorically.[1]

Catholics give adoration to Christ, whom they believe to be really present, in body and blood, soul and divinity, in sacramental bread whose reality has been changed into that of his body.

Its purpose is to allow the worshipper to engage his whole person in acknowledging the presence of and to honor Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. It is customary to genuflect whenever one comes into or leaves the presence of the Blessed Sacrament reserved in the Tabernacle.

Matthew 24:26 -- FULFILLED --