Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#61
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#61
Jackson123 said:
7 years Great tribulation is not God wrath. It is devil wrath to people that not take the mark of the beast.

Who make a law that whosoever not take the mark Will be kill or can't buy or sale?
Is that God?

Do God punish one that not take the mark?

Devil wrath or angry to people that not take the mark.

So 7 years tribulation is not God wrath but devil wrath
Click to expand...
Hello Jackson123!

We have gone over this before. The seven years is that last of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. It is also the time when God will pour out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Everything that takes place during that seven years, including the reign of the beast, is apart of God's wrath. Satan may get angry during that time, but it is the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

Does God punish one that not take the mark?
Click to expand...
Anyone who is trapped on the earth during that seven years will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which is the wrath of God. Many of those great tribulation saints who do not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, will be killed because of it and because of their testimony for Jesus.

The idea that the seven year period is Satan's wrath, is just another false teaching that has come along and which you have adopted. The last seven years will be God's time of wrath, also known as the Day of the Lord. While the antichrist is doing his thing, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues from the two witnesses will be taking place.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#62
Jul 18, 2017
24,429
12,913
113
#62
Ahwatukee said:
Anyone who is trapped on the earth during that seven years will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which is the wrath of God.
Click to expand...
Correct. It would appear that the first six trumpet judgments are sent during the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week, while the seventh trumpet judgment (which includes the seven vials of God's wrath) are sent during the last 3 1/2 years. Those are the "desolations" triggered by the Abomination of Desolation (set up in the midst of the week). All of this is an expression of the wrath of God (but includes the wrath of Satan during the first 3 1/2 years when the Antichrist is in control).
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#64
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#64
Jackson123 said:
7 years Great tribulation is not God wrath. It is devil wrath to people that not take the mark of the beast.

Who make a law that whosoever not take the mark Will be kill or can't buy or sale?
Is that God?

Do God punish one that not take the mark?

Devil wrath or angry to people that not take the mark.

So 7 years tribulation is not God wrath but devil wrath
Click to expand...
It says "power was given the antichrist to overcome the saints"

It goes back to God judging indirectly.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#65
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#65
Ahwatukee said:
Many of those great tribulation saints who do not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, will be killed because of it and because of their testimony for Jesus.
Click to expand...
Killed by who?
Satan, that mean this is wrath os satanic


Ahwatukee said:
Many of those great tribulation saints who do not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, will be killed
Click to expand...
That mean These saint not rapture yet, how the bewst kill Christian that already rapture?
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#66
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#66
Absolutely said:
It says "power was given the antichrist to overcome the saints"

It goes back to God judging indirectly.
Click to expand...
Antichrist overcome saint mean indirect judgement from God?

Why God judge saint?
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#68
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#68
Jackson123 said:
Antichrist overcome saint mean indirect judgement from God?

Why God judge saint?
Click to expand...
Gods testimony.

We know God judges us indirectly through what we see in the OT. He used other nations to Judge his people (indirect judgement).
Same thing with antichrist.

The ac kills all refusing the mark.
That alone proves a pretrib rapture.
Those left behind lose their heads.
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#69
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#69
Jackson123 said:
Killed by who?
Satan, that mean this is wrath os satanic




That mean These saint not rapture yet, how the bewst kill Christian that already rapture?
Click to expand...
Those left behind are killed by refusing the mark.
Why do you think the jews are ushered to safety (including the 144k) with the devil hot on their heels?

"Unless those days be shortened no flesh should be saved"

All refusing the mark die.
That eliminates a post or mid trib rapture

The gathering off the earth mid trib or towards the end of the gt (Rev 14) ,TOTALLY eliminates a postrib resurrection.
TOALLY.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#70
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#70
Jackson123 said:
Killed by who?
Satan, that mean this is wrath of satanic
Click to expand...
The great tribulation saints will be killed, with many beheaded, during that last 3 1/2 year period, which will take place within the time of God's wrath. Chapters 6 thru 18 are a detailed account of God's wrath. It just so happens that the beast will be doing things within that time period of God's wrath as well.

You are making this a play on words. Satan is just showing his anger within the time of God's wrath. It is the Day of the Lord which has been prophesied from the Old testament saints and the apostles. What is coming is the fulfillment of God's prophesied time of wrath, also known as 'the Day of the Lord.' Whatever anger Satan expresses during that time will be done within that period of God's wrath.

That means that These saint not rapture yet, how the beast kill Christian that already rapture?
Click to expand...
Jackson, by your question, it shows that you are missing important information. So allow me to illustrate the chronological order for you:

* We are here

* The Lord will soon appear raising the dead with the living being changed and caught up and taken to the Father's house - (John 14:1-3, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, I Corinthians 15:51-53)

* After the church has been resurrected and caught up, there will be people from every nation, tribe, people and language, who will become believers during the time of God's wrath referred to as the great tribulation saints. This group is not the church, but are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered (Revelation 7:9-17, 13:5-7, 20:4-6)

* The antichrist will establish a seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build their temple and will begin to sacrifice in keeping with the decree which was made while they were still under the law (Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24:15-22, Revelation 12:6, 14)

* In the middle of that seven years, the beast/antichrist will stop the sacrifices and offerings and will set up that abomination in the temple which causes the desolation (Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15-22)

* The abomination will be a sign for Israel to flee out into the wilderness, which is the desolation (Matthew 24:15-22)

* During the middle of the seven years, the beast is given authority to wage war and to conquer the great tribulation saints
(Revelation 13:5-7)

* Some time after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age (Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 15:1, 16:17, 19:11-21)

* The beast and the false prophet will be captured and the both of them will be thrown alive into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:21)

* Satan will be seized and will be thrown into and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-3)

* At that time, the great tribulation saints who will have been killed, will be resurrected and will rule with Christ during that thousand years - (Rev.20:4-6)

So according to this chronological order of events, the church is caught up prior to God's wrath and the great tribulation saints are resurrected after God's wrath and after Christ returns to the earth. Below are the groups who will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath:

1). The unbelieving nation of Israel

2). The 144,000 Israelites (12,000 from each tribe)

3). The great tribulation saints from every nation, tribe, people and language

4). The two witnesses

5). The wicked (those who's names were not written in the book of life before the world began).
 
A

AlmondJoy

Active member
#71
Oct 31, 2020
245
71
28
#71
Ahwatukee said:
The great tribulation saints will be killed, with many beheaded, during that last 3 1/2 year period, which will take place within the time of God's wrath. Chapters 6 thru 18 are a detailed account of God's wrath. It just so happens that the beast will be doing things within that time period of God's wrath as well.

You are making this a play on words. Satan is just showing his anger within the time of God's wrath. It is the Day of the Lord which has been prophesied from the Old testament saints and the apostles. What is coming is the fulfillment of God's prophesied time of wrath, also known as 'the Day of the Lord.' Whatever anger Satan expresses during that time will be done within that period of God's wrath.



Jackson, by your question, it shows that you are missing important information. So allow me to illustrate the chronological order for you:

* We are here

* The Lord will soon appear raising the dead with the living being changed and caught up and taken to the Father's house - (John 14:1-3, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, I Corinthians 15:51-53)

* After the church has been resurrected and caught up, there will be people from every nation, tribe, people and language, who will become believers during the time of God's wrath referred to as the great tribulation saints. This group is not the church, but are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered (Revelation 7:9-17, 13:5-7, 20:4-6)

* The antichrist will establish a seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build their temple and will begin to sacrifice in keeping with the decree which was made while they were still under the law (Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24:15-22, Revelation 12:6, 14)

* In the middle of that seven years, the beast/antichrist will stop the sacrifices and offerings and will set up that abomination in the temple which causes the desolation (Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15-22)

* The abomination will be a sign for Israel to flee out into the wilderness, which is the desolation (Matthew 24:15-22)

* During the middle of the seven years, the beast is given authority to wage war and to conquer the great tribulation saints
(Revelation 13:5-7)

* Some time after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age (Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 15:1, 16:17, 19:11-21)

* The beast and the false prophet will be captured and the both of them will be thrown alive into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:21)

* Satan will be seized and will be thrown into and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-3)

* At that time, the great tribulation saints who will have been killed, will be resurrected and will rule with Christ during that thousand years - (Rev.20:4-6)

So according to this chronological order of events, the church is caught up prior to God's wrath and the great tribulation saints are resurrected after God's wrath and after Christ returns to the earth. Below are the groups who will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath:

1). The unbelieving nation of Israel

2). The 144,000 Israelites (12,000 from each tribe)

3). The great tribulation saints from every nation, tribe, people and language

4). The two witnesses

5). The wicked (those who's names were not written in the book of life before the world began).
Click to expand...
could Jesus return today?
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#72
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
#72
AlmondJoy said:
could Jesus return today?
Click to expand...
Are you asking about His "RETURN" or "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"?--as these are distinct occurrences.

See the top of a post I made yesterday:

https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4420634 [note that the "underlined emphasis" has not transferred here :D ]

the biblical term "RETURN" (when used re: Jesus) speaks ONLY of His Second Coming to the earth:
Click to expand...
--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44[see parallels],45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED 'Bridegroom' WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] His 'Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]')... THEN the meal [G347]

("the meal [G347]" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the age [SINGULAR] to come"]--I think we agree there will be this earthly MK age following His "RETURN" to the earth);
Click to expand...
--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" ['cities' are on the earth], and "be thou likewise over 5 cities"
Click to expand...
So if you mean His "RETURN" (that is, to the earth), then the answer is "no"... a number of things must take place prior to that point.

OTOH, no biblically-defined "signs" precede "our Rapture" event (but that event is not what the "RETURN" passages [re: Him] speak to).

= )
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#74
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
#74
Ahwatukee said:
The great tribulation saints will be killed, with many beheaded, during that last 3 1/2 year period, which will take place within the time of God's wrath.
Click to expand...
Many falsely teach the saints seen in Revelation 13:7 represents the Church, suggesting that (The Beast) will kill all Christians?

The saints on earth in Revelation 13:7 are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation 11:7 below.

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony after 1260 days, they will be overcome and killed by (The Beast) Gods Divine plan.

The saints seen in Revelation 13:7 dosen't represent the Church on earth, as many falsely teach in error, this represents the (Two Witnesses)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
 
A

AlmondJoy

Active member
#75
Oct 31, 2020
245
71
28
#75
Scribe said:
We sure Better be living like it. :)
Click to expand...
I agree....I have often wondered why people disagreed on this subject so much....

Wasn't Paul looking for the Lord to return even in his day?

He said "......we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:14‭-‬18
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#76
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#76
AlmondJoy said:
could Jesus return today?
Click to expand...
Greetings Almondjoy!

Yes, Jesus' return for His church is and has always been imminent, i.e. there are no events that have to take place before He comes to gather us.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#77
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#77
AlmondJoy said:
I agree....I have often wondered why people disagreed on this subject so much....

Wasn't Paul looking for the Lord to return even in his day?

He said "......we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:14‭-‬18
Click to expand...
Yes, you are correct! Paul included himself and those with him, as those who would be living at the time of the resurrection and the living being changed and caught up, which also demonstrates the Lord's imminent return.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#78
#78
AlmondJoy said:
I agree....I have often wondered why people disagreed on this subject so much....

Wasn't Paul looking for the Lord to return even in his day?

He said "......we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:14‭-‬18
Click to expand...
Yes there are many verses about being ready because you don't know when he will come. Many. We are not to be looking for the Antichrist, the rebuilding of the temple, or the mark of the beast. We are to be looking for His appearing.

All these interpretations about the cryptic references in Revelation are fine to speculate about but they do not change the constant admonition of the New Testament to be ready and looking for His appearing. That must not change or we have taken a wrong path in our interpretations of eschatology.

The reason people get too emotionally invested in their views in eschatology is to hide from the real issue of allowing Christ to deal with their heart. Most of the people I have known that were so dogmatic about their views of eschatology and liked to argue about it all the time, were half-baked and living unholy lives. I wanted to tell them, "Who cares!? You're living in sin and what makes you think you are ready to meet Christ if He comes back today?" As soon as I start talking about fellowship with the Holy Spirit and intimacy with Christ they just blink and start talking about the Mark again. They are hiding. Front sliding...
 
T

Truth7t7

Well-known member
#79
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
#79
Scribe said:
We are not to be looking for the Antichrist, the rebuilding of the temple, or the mark of the beast. We are to be looking for His appearing.

.
Click to expand...
Your Claim Is False.......:)

The scripture clearly (WARNS) the believers to look for the Antichrist, that will (Precede) the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
 
A

AlmondJoy

Active member
#80
Oct 31, 2020
245
71
28
#80
Ahwatukee said:
Greetings Almondjoy!

Yes, Jesus' return for His church is and has always been imminent, i.e. there are no events that have to take place before He comes to gather us.
Click to expand...
Praise God!!!! Even so come quickly Lord
 
You must log in or register to reply here.