The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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eternally-gratefull

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It was, for the elec, by Christ's faithfulness in going to the cross to pay for their sins, Gal 2:16.
Then faith is meaningless. And everyone he died for is born alive in Christ.

I am sorry my friend, there is no other option.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Hi Gramps, it’s been awhile. Jesus teaches us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. It seems as though the sins of unbelievers are forgiven but the difference between them and us is unbelievers are still guilty of blasphemy hence why they are not saved. Thoughts?
No. Blasphemy is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the enemy.

Unbelievers retain their sin because they are not in Christ Jesus.

Only believers in Christ are forgiven of their sin.

Its the only way to be free from the law of sin and death. Its why we are not under law but under grace.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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The Bible has many parts that need interpreting. And according to 2nd Peter 1:20 they may not be done with our thoughts. We must use scripture to interpret scripture. But much of the Bible is in plain language because God is transmitting an idea and it is transmitted in plain language. When John 1:29 says that our Lord Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, it does not have an hidden meaning. The student of the Bible must not interpret it, but study it. What does the Lamb reveal? Why the word "sin" in the singular. Why the "world" and not just the Church?

I don't want to provoke another round of back and forth, but have you ever considered that the word "hell" does not appear in the original Greek Texts. It is a Roman Catholic/Pagan concept. The Greek text knows THREE different words that our esteemed (and very capable) translators were faced with and decided to render "hell". They are (i) Gehenna, (ii) Hades, and (iii) Tartaroo. Each has a different meaning and use. To award these three very important entities the generic term "hell" is a product of a thousand years of Roman Catholic myth. So also the idea that Christ's work is only for believers is a product of some very fine men, but who had neither the time and/or resources to study the whole Bible carefully.

Consider this, Let's assume that real born-again Christians make up 1% of the world's population. Or if you don't like that, let's say 3%. In the generic common gospel as taught by these 3%, 97% of men will go to the Lake of Fire. But what then of God's Promise to Abraham? Did God Himself, with an oath, not promise that in Abraham's seed ALL the families of the earth would be blessed? Don't you think its worth a study to really discover whether 97% of men land in eternal agony, including all Jews who broke the Law, and all Jews who rejected Christ. What then, we must ask, is "ALL families of the earth". What then, we must ask, is the prophecy that AFTER Armageddon, the survivors must go up to Jerusalem every year at Taberncales to worship Christ (Zech.14:16). How come Isaiah 2:2 predicts;

2 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."


We know that since Abel was killed there has been war. We know that right up until Christ's coming there will be "wars and rumors of war". But here, Isaiah is speaking of a future time when the Lord's HOUSE will stand in Jerusalem and ALL Nations, who know no war, will flow into it. Since the Church is not revealed in the Old Testament, and seeing as the Church is among all nations, the "House" of the Lord at Jerusalem must be a Temple. Therefore, this prophecy must stll be future to us. How does this tie up with "all nations being in the Lake of Fire?" The answer is that the Bible is bigger than the gospel of John. These verses from Isaiah don't mention the Church, but they do mention Israel and ALL the Nations. Israel don't believe in Jesus till He bursts forth from the clouds. How then are they saved as a Nation? It is because God had a Covenant with them - that of Promise made with Abraham. How will God satisfy His righteousness when Israel have sinned so abominably AND rejected and murdered their Messiah?

Don't answer. Just contemplate these things.
I understand why you do not want an answer. I do not believe that the scriptures support the reign of Christ staying on earth after his second coming and reigning over his kingdom. His kingdom came in the form of his bride, the church, in the generation of his apostles preaching, repent, for the kingdom of heaven (the church) is at hand.

You do understand that God inspired his words to be a mystery to the wise and prudent, and revealed them (through the revelation of the Holy Spirit) unto babes in Christ, do you not?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I post again for you.

John 1:29: "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

I do not interpret it, and it DOES say "sins of the world". It is you that adds "believers" and corrupts it. The wages of "sin" (singular) is death. If "sin" is not fully dealt with then ALL men cannot be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22). This verse does NOT speak of TRESPASSES. You probably need to go back and study Romans where the word "sin" (singular) is dealt with at length.

Don't add to scripture, and mostly it speaks for itself. There is a huge difference between "sin" (singular) and "sins" (plural). But what say you to 1st John 2:2. Do you need to ADD something there too?
You wouldn't still be trying to argue if you weren't interpreting.

For those in Christ sin has been dealt with. For those who don't believe they retain their sin.


I can keep showing you.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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justification Is the cleansing which allows us to be born again

what is it that holds us in the condemned state

in order to be born again, that sin must be justified,
If all sins have been taken away then what needs to be cleaned?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I hear from where you are coming from, but respectfully, disagree with you about the elect falling into condemnation when they commit a sin. They are not under condemnation of sin and death, as far as their eternal inheritance is concerned, but after they have been quickened to a spiritual life, and commit a sin, they lose their relationship with God, temporary, and are condemned until they repent, because God will not fellowship with sin. even if they do not repent, they still do not lose their eternal inheritance.

"Condemned" in John 3:18, according to Greek interpretation means; avenge, judge, call in question, punish.
You must not have been reading what I have been posting.

Unless you think unbelievers are also elect...
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Then faith is meaningless. And everyone he died for is born alive in Christ.

I am sorry my friend, there is no other option.
The payment for the sins of the elect was made in a covenant relationship within the Godhead on the cross, and secured the elect's eternal inheritance.

The elect are born into this world dead spiritually after the sin of Adam, the same as the rest of mankind, and sometime in their lives here on earth, having already been Justified and redeemed on the cross, God quickens them to a spiritual life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures, if harmonized, will support these truths.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Then faith is meaningless. And everyone he died for is born alive in Christ.

I am sorry my friend, there is no other option.
It is a mystery, and God intended it to be, to confound the wise and prudent, who will not deny their own entelect.
 
May 31, 2020
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@Magenta posted this Scripture on another thread that seems fitting for this thread.

“[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:4

That doesn’t speak well of calvinism.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Yes, and yes, that is called conversion, so, what is the point you are trying to make?
Your understanding of the gospel seems very disjointed and inconsistent with actual scripture. Since you claim to be saved by election Why would God convict you of sin? All God needs to do in the case of election is exercise His sovereign will and you are saved even if it's against your will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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@Magenta posted this Scripture on another thread that seems fitting for this thread.

“[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:4

That doesn’t speak well of calvinism.


Thank you, Duskey :)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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You must not have been reading what I have been posting.

Unless you think unbelievers are also elect...
Believing is not the "cause" of our eternal deliverance, but is a product of already having been quickened to a spiritual life.

Eph 2:5 says that we are quickened together with Christ, so, how do you interpret 2 Tim 2:13? "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself". Unbelievers that have not been quickened, and are not of the elect, will not be quickened.

None of the elect believe until after they have been born again, and even after they have been born again, and are new born babes in Christ, they believe in God, but until they mature through a gradual growth of hearing the gospel, by the revelation of the Holy Ghost, they do not have a knowledge of God's righteousness. This fact is depicted in Rom 10, where paul is praying that Israel ( which is the church, Jacob surname Israel, and not the nation of Israel, because all Israel is not of Israel Rom 9:6) might be saved (delivered from their lack of knowledge) because the men that he was praying for "had a zeal of God" (indicating that they were born again) but not according to knowledge. and were going about trying to establish their own righteousness, by their works, and not submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God.

This is why Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep (new born babes in Christ) of the house of Israel (Jacob/Israel, the church) Matt 10:6

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and are "drawn" from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.

John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me "draw" him, and I will raise him up at the last day. God does not draw the unregenerate, but those that he has quickened, new born babes in Christ

I believe that Matt 7, about the two gates will harmonize with the fact that those who find the strait gate, are those regenerated children of God who have matured in their knowledge of the righteousness of God that has lead them to that good and abundant life here on earth, whom God has purposed to teach and preach the doctrine of Jesus to those regenerated, new born babes in Christ who go into the wide gate, and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works, and are not submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God, which leads them to destruction.

Preaching the righteousness of a spiritual God to the unregenerate natural man, depicted in 1 Cor 2:14 would be non productive because he cannot hear to discern, the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27-28.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
If all sins have been taken away then what needs to be cleaned?
The sin of unbelief. God will not force you to receive his gift, if you die having rejected his gift. then you will have died in the state of committing the unpardonable sin
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No. Blasphemy is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the enemy.

Unbelievers retain their sin because they are not in Christ Jesus.

Only believers in Christ are forgiven of their sin.

Its the only way to be free from the law of sin and death. Its why we are not under law but under grace.
Which is exactly what one does when they reject the HS

it is him who brings us to the knowledge of God, if we reject his message, we attribute him To doing the work of the enemy,

remember, Jesus said they were in danger, and they were in the very act of unbelief. By attributing that work to satan
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The payment for the sins of the elect was made in a covenant relationship within the Godhead on the cross, and secured the elect's eternal inheritance.

The elect are born into this world dead spiritually after the sin of Adam, the same as the rest of mankind, and sometime in their lives here on earth, having already been Justified and redeemed on the cross, God quickens them to a spiritual life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures, if harmonized, will support these truths.
Nope

You have things out of context,

if their sin is already forgiven, then there is no need to quicken them, the penalty of sin is already removed, they would by defenition be alive already
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is a mystery, and God intended it to be, to confound the wise and prudent, who will not deny their own entelect.
It’s not a mystery, abraham was saved by that same faith as was all men who have ever been adopted as Gods children from the beginning of time
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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@Magenta posted this Scripture on another thread that seems fitting for this thread.

“[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:4

That doesn’t speak well of calvinism.
Saved according to Greek = delivered. There is a deliverance for the regenerated child of god when he has matured enough to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk (of the word) and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

The unregenerate natural man, depicted in 1 Cor 2:14 will never come to a knowledge of spiritual truths that he cannot discern, and thinks them to be foolishness.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Your understanding of the gospel seems very disjointed and inconsistent with actual scripture. Since you claim to be saved by election Why would God convict you of sin? All God needs to do in the case of election is exercise His sovereign will and you are saved even if it's against your will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Christ died for the sins of the elect, those that his Father gave him, and in a covenant relationship with the Godhead, secured eternal inheritance for them John 6:39.

The elect are born into this world spiritually dead after the sin of Adam, just the same way all mankind are born into this world.

Sometime in their life the elect are quickened to a new spiritual life, having already been justified by Christ on the cross. The rest of mankind are never quickened.

God gave mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his live as he sojourns here in this world, but mankind's eternal inheritance, and spiritual birth, is by God's sovereign grace, without the input of mankind's will.

John 15:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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The sin of unbelief. God will not force you to receive his gift, if you die having rejected his gift. then you will have died in the state of committing the unpardonable sin
Jesus's sacrifice to pay for the sins of those elect that his Father gave him, was not offered to man for man's acceptance, but was offered to God, for God's acceptance.

God did not offer man spiritual life. He quickens them to a spiritual life when they are spiritually dead, and cannot repent of breaking a spiritual law that they cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness. Eph 2:1 & 5.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.