Lord of the Rings

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Tararose

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2020
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#21
Actually, I can totally see this working.

I know many gay people who are at a point in their lives where they are starting to feel like there's something wrong with what they're doing. They are, you might say, ripe for harvest. But many of them won't even consider Christianity because of the hatred many Christians show towards gays.

Making a movie about a gay couple who find Jesus, repent, and turn their lives around, could be a great way to reach people. Show them a way to live upright that isn't preachy, that shows more of "love the sinner" than "hate the sin."

I don't know if this will change anyone's mind in here, but I could see it working.
You might have misunderstood my Meaning a little.

There is no issue with movies depicting anyone trapped in thier sinful lives and the Lord saving them FROM the their sin. The bible is full of These living redemption stories :) Yes that testimony would represent God’s love for us indeed.

However, I was using an extreme suggestion, and that was the notion that the act of physical union - the homosexual couple’s sinful sexual acts to be blunt - could be used to represent Christ’s love for His church. (To be doubly clear, saying that the act of any sinners engaging in any act of sin represents God in some way, is what should repulse believers.)

I wasn’t saying His love does not reach to any particular sinner Living in any particular sin.
I used a random example, I don’t think any sin is worse than any other, they all require Christ’s death to pay for them, and they all send people to hell. We should make every effort to reach all people with the love of God and the gospel of grace. Totally agree with you there.
 

Tararose

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2020
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#22
I greatly respect your zeal and vision for holiness. You have caused me to stop and rethink some things. Life is short and eternity is long. The fields are white for harvest. The time quickly cometh when no man can work. There will be plenty of time and opportunity to rest once we get to the other side. Bless you, sister.
Thank you for your encouragement, It can and does make me unpopular at times, and though I don’t like confrontation and controversial topics, I thInk am ok to share my views as long as I don’t get nasty or offended when people disagree.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
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#23
Thank you for your encouragement, It can and does make me unpopular at times, and though I don’t like confrontation and controversial topics, I thInk am ok to share my views as long as I don’t get nasty or offended when people disagree.
Paul and Barnabas had a big confrontation and they both ended up going in separate directions BUT God still used both directions for Kingdom good.
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
229
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#24
Nothing to apologise for as far as I can see, i enjoy the discussion.

My point was regarding the films being touted as Christian, and the idea that a sorcerer, or the use of sorcery in general is depicted as good etc. by a famous and highly respected Christian author, in what many claim to be an allegory of the spiritual warfare of believers.

This analogy many use, does involve a representation of God and His power assisting lesser beings on their journey as they battle the evil forces etc. not to mention Gandolf (didn’t he exist before the universe?) dies and comes even back more powerful. than ever. Dressed in white and all that etc.

My reply wasn’t aimed at the op specifically, just LOTR generally and similar stories, being labelled by many as Christian.
I thought J.R.R Tolkien was catholic? I also don’t think that the books or the movies are Christian..just stories. The movies were well done in that they put a lot of effort into making them look real and the cinematography was excellent. Who didn’t want to go to New Zealand after seeing the scenery there?
 

Tararose

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2020
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Uk
www.101christiansocialnetwork.com
#25
Paul and Barnabas had a big confrontation and they both ended up going in separate directions BUT God still used both directions for Kingdom good.
Absolutely :)
Although He does not want us to be divided in that way, (much better to be of one mind,) He uses all things to fulfil His purposes, extend the kingdom, bring Glory to His name, and also for our good if we are His.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
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#26
Absolutely :)
Although He does not want us to be divided in that way, (much better to be of one mind,) He uses all things to fulfil His purposes, extend the kingdom, bring Glory to His name, and also for our good if we are His.
Of course, he doesn't want us divided but we are in many theological ways. God could have straightened all of this out. But I believe it was intentional.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#27
I'm not replacing the Bible. But Jesus is considered the lion and the lamb. Which in Narnia the Lion is also sacrificed but returns.

Read the book of Acts and recall how Paul uses places, objects, people, and popular philosophical beliefs of the day to apologetically promote Christ. Recall he once used a pagan statue for worshipping the unknown gods as a talking point on who exactly is the unknown God. The only unknown God to those pagans was Yahweh.
actually Jesus is the lamb of God, nowhere in the Bible is he deemed the lion
People always confuse this.
The lion kills the lamb.
The lamb doesnt kill the lion.

The lamb sacrifices himself in the lions mouth.

The lamb is born again i.e resurrected. There is no resurrection of the lion.
The lamb is on the throne.

all the beasts (lions, eagles, bears, leopards) then acknowledge that the lamb is on the throne.

for some people, thats hard to grasp.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#28
Paul was not actually pointing to any statue or object when he was pointing to an inscription to an unknown God.
There was an altar but no statue there.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
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#29
actually Jesus is the lamb of God, nowhere in the Bible is he deemed the lion
People always confuse this.
The lion kills the lamb.
The lamb doesnt kill the lion.

The lamb sacrifices himself in the lions mouth.

The lamb is born again i.e resurrected. There is no resurrection of the lion.
The lamb is on the throne.

all the beasts (lions, eagles, bears, leopards) then acknowledge that the lamb is on the throne.

for some people, thats hard to grasp.
“Then one of the elders said to me, ‘Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals’” (Revelation 5:5).
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
54,912
25,565
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#30
Absolutely :)
Although He does not want us to be divided in that way, (much better to be of one mind,) He uses all things
to fulfil His purposes, extend the kingdom, bring Glory to His name, and also for our good if we are His.


Romans 8:28:)
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
#31
Wizards, sorcerers or any sort of magician or witch cannot righteously be used to represent Christ or God.
I know you are not going to like me for my views here, and God can use anything for good, even Satans attacks on Job- but they were evil non the less.

For the record, I watched the first 3 films, extended versions. It was horrific and I have never watched them since.
I am sure Tolken had plenty to say that was correct, and meant no harm. He was maybe convinced, like cs lewis was for a time, that a "good" pagan and a "good witch' were somehow ok in God's eyes. But he is simply wrong. They are engaging in sin, practice a lifestyle of it, indeed it is their profession and they master that sin and use it to get what they want. This is no way represents anything of God.

Before anyone shoots me down, rather than argue the merits of LOTR which I know many can and will do, just at least hear me out.

If you can use (in its correct context) the scriptures to convince a solid, spiritually sound, bible-believing pastor, or even just a believer like little old me, that in just the same way and using just the same logic, making a movie about a committed homosexual couple would be a great idea to get the gospel out there, because the maker of the film told you that this sinful relationship represents Christ and the church, and that their sinful acts together represent acts of Christs love towards His church and their faithful commitment to Him - well then you might be able to convince me LOTR is a "christian" (CHRIST LIKE?) film, or in some way represents "God".

Many believers would rightly be HORRIFIED at the thought of making a film glorifying and promoting acts of sin like that, as even a supposed subtle attempt to reach the lost with "entertaining" fiction that pleases the masses.

Why though? And yes, it is exactly the same principle that we are talking about.

Yet because LOTR and films like The lion The Witch and The Wardrobe are traditionally accepted, quoted and promoted in church, its become ok to say what God says is abominable - such as a wizard or a user of the magic arts - can somehow honourably represent Him, His miricles, or His power.

Even only using basic logic, how can a believer agree with that reasoning?

Of course I know that enjoying LOTR won't send a believer to hell. But, come on! It is obviously massively unbalanced reasoning to say LOTR is Christian in any way.
No other obvious sin in the bible, used so blatantly in this way, would be spoken of so warmly, passionately even, and heralded as the basis for some form of wholesome christian entertainment. I don't know how it became normalised and then promoted as being something to encourage Christians in spiritual warfare, when spiritual warfare and salvational examples in scripture involved burning spell books and denouncing the magic arts.

Unrepentant idolators, murderers, thieves, prostitutes, adulterers, representing God Himself in "Christian" fiction? How would you feel about it? No-one can honestly justify the use of new age pagan mythology, sorcery or magic to depict Christ, the Holy Spirit, or God or His power or His actions, sorry but you just can't. You would certainly have to chuck a lot of scripture out to do it.

So, why do believers do it? I don't mean why do they watch it, goodness, many believers watch and read a lot of sinful stuff and enjoy it in the name of entertainment. But I don't hear them saying, you know those sordid sex scenes in Game of Thrones last night, really reminded me of Christ and the Church. No, they don't bother to pretend because no one would believe that for a second. if you asked them why they watch such filth, they tend to just say they don't have a problem with it. At least that is honest!

That's my entire bug bear. If they just said, "yeah LOTR is a well made fantasy film and although it glorifies things the bible says are sinful, and calls evil good, I just don't have a problem with it", at least that would actually be the truth.

Can you see God in it, sure, people see correlations in lot of things. Christian or not. My atheist, new age and pagan aquaintances love LOTR, but actually more so The Lion The Witch and The wardrobe, as they see a lot more in common with their beliefs in it. (And they would be pretty accurate in saying that.)

I am sure I do tons of non-salvational related stuff that others here disagree with, but I am hoping that this post might provoke people to just stop trying to make out these type of stories in some way righteously, spiritually represent the pure and holy God of the bible, or anything He has done or does, or anything He is.

Then again, openly admitting to and expressing such an unpopular view might just get me a few red circles with x in them or thumbs down, as it usually does lol.

Either way, these things make for good discussions at least. If people are open to it anyway.....
Gandalf has some parallels to Odin, but within a Christian context he is depicting an angel and a servant of God. "I am a servant of the secret fire" -Gandalf, which ties in with Hebrews 12:29: "For our God is a consuming fire".

In the Old Covenant laws of Deuteronomy, specific types of magic were forbidden for mankind to perform. The forbidden arts did not include techniques such as magical healing. Not all magic was sinful. And these were laws specifically to govern people, not angels.

I'm curious if we were to break down Gandalf's use of magic in the movies and compare it to what is considered Biblically moral, how well the two might align.
 

EnglishChick

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2021
673
349
63
42
England UK
#32
Wizards, sorcerers or any sort of magician or witch cannot righteously be used to represent Christ or God.
I know you are not going to like me for my views here, and God can use anything for good, even Satans attacks on Job- but they were evil non the less.

For the record, I watched the first 3 films, extended versions. It was horrific and I have never watched them since.
I am sure Tolken had plenty to say that was correct, and meant no harm. He was maybe convinced, like cs lewis was for a time, that a "good" pagan and a "good witch' were somehow ok in God's eyes. But he is simply wrong. They are engaging in sin, practice a lifestyle of it, indeed it is their profession and they master that sin and use it to get what they want. This is no way represents anything of God.

Before anyone shoots me down, rather than argue the merits of LOTR which I know many can and will do, just at least hear me out.

If you can use (in its correct context) the scriptures to convince a solid, spiritually sound, bible-believing pastor, or even just a believer like little old me, that in just the same way and using just the same logic, making a movie about a committed homosexual couple would be a great idea to get the gospel out there, because the maker of the film told you that this sinful relationship represents Christ and the church, and that their sinful acts together represent acts of Christs love towards His church and their faithful commitment to Him - well then you might be able to convince me LOTR is a "christian" (CHRIST LIKE?) film, or in some way represents "God".

Many believers would rightly be HORRIFIED at the thought of making a film glorifying and promoting acts of sin like that, as even a supposed subtle attempt to reach the lost with "entertaining" fiction that pleases the masses.

Why though? And yes, it is exactly the same principle that we are talking about.

Yet because LOTR and films like The lion The Witch and The Wardrobe are traditionally accepted, quoted and promoted in church, its become ok to say what God says is abominable - such as a wizard or a user of the magic arts - can somehow honourably represent Him, His miricles, or His power.

Even only using basic logic, how can a believer agree with that reasoning?

Of course I know that enjoying LOTR won't send a believer to hell. But, come on! It is obviously massively unbalanced reasoning to say LOTR is Christian in any way.
No other obvious sin in the bible, used so blatantly in this way, would be spoken of so warmly, passionately even, and heralded as the basis for some form of wholesome christian entertainment. I don't know how it became normalised and then promoted as being something to encourage Christians in spiritual warfare, when spiritual warfare and salvational examples in scripture involved burning spell books and denouncing the magic arts.

Unrepentant idolators, murderers, thieves, prostitutes, adulterers, representing God Himself in "Christian" fiction? How would you feel about it? No-one can honestly justify the use of new age pagan mythology, sorcery or magic to depict Christ, the Holy Spirit, or God or His power or His actions, sorry but you just can't. You would certainly have to chuck a lot of scripture out to do it.

So, why do believers do it? I don't mean why do they watch it, goodness, many believers watch and read a lot of sinful stuff and enjoy it in the name of entertainment. But I don't hear them saying, you know those sordid sex scenes in Game of Thrones last night, really reminded me of Christ and the Church. No, they don't bother to pretend because no one would believe that for a second. if you asked them why they watch such filth, they tend to just say they don't have a problem with it. At least that is honest!

That's my entire bug bear. If they just said, "yeah LOTR is a well made fantasy film and although it glorifies things the bible says are sinful, and calls evil good, I just don't have a problem with it", at least that would actually be the truth.

Can you see God in it, sure, people see correlations in lot of things. Christian or not. My atheist, new age and pagan aquaintances love LOTR, but actually more so The Lion The Witch and The wardrobe, as they see a lot more in common with their beliefs in it. (And they would be pretty accurate in saying that.)

I am sure I do tons of non-salvational related stuff that others here disagree with, but I am hoping that this post might provoke people to just stop trying to make out these type of stories in some way righteously, spiritually represent the pure and holy God of the bible, or anything He has done or does, or anything He is.

Then again, openly admitting to and expressing such an unpopular view might just get me a few red circles with x in them or thumbs down, as it usually does lol.

Either way, these things make for good discussions at least. If people are open to it anyway.....
Much as I like Tolkein I do have an issue with Gandalf, who is a wizard, therefore in sin, being portrayed as a hero.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
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#33
Much as I like Tolkein I do have an issue with Gandalf, who is a wizard, therefore in sin, being portrayed as a hero.
Many Christians have problems with C.S.Lewis's book of Narnia which contains a lion, witch and a magical wardrobe. The lion represented Christ, the witch was evil even though there was a good witch too. And the wardrobe magically transported the kids into Narnia a fantasy world.
 

Platosgal

Active member
Mar 17, 2020
282
179
43
#34
I have to admit
When I was in a very personal crisis
Deep in real grief, Mad at God, surrounded and supportef by my worldly, Godless friends, CS Lewis (Lion, Witch ...series) really helped me back to Jesus
It was conceptually direct and obvious in its " Fairy Tale"
LOR on the other hand
Is clearly Catholic, a bit confused
Generically Good vs Evil and not the True Good..Plus in several situations
I know of teens who rejected the Gospel
But embraced Paganism BECAUSE LOR
Was read to them in...wait for it
Church!!! Ya, Tolkien may have to answer for his sincere attempt at allegory
 

EnglishChick

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2021
673
349
63
42
England UK
#35
I'm uncomfortable with Harry Potter fortreason
I have to admit
When I was in a very personal crisis
Deep in real grief, Mad at God, surrounded and supportef by my worldly, Godless friends, CS Lewis (Lion, Witch ...series) really helped me back to Jesus
It was conceptually direct and obvious in its " Fairy Tale"
LOR on the other hand
Is clearly Catholic, a bit confused
Generically Good vs Evil and not the True Good..Plus in several situations
I know of teens who rejected the Gospel
But embraced Paganism BECAUSE LOR
Was read to them in...wait for it
Church!!! Ya, Tolkien may have to answer for his sincere attempt at allegory

Yes I was in that situation too and found God really spoke to me of His character through the Narnia books. I would say though that Narnia is different to LOT R because the witch in those books is an evil character whereas Gandalf is portrayed as good

my issue with Harry potter.is that the hero of the books is essentially a warlock. So children read that and think that being a War lock is ok because warlock s can be nice cool people who do good things
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,451
113
#37
I have to admit
When I was in a very personal crisis
Deep in real grief, Mad at God, surrounded and supportef by my worldly, Godless friends, CS Lewis (Lion, Witch ...series) really helped me back to Jesus
It was conceptually direct and obvious in its " Fairy Tale"
LOR on the other hand
Is clearly Catholic, a bit confused
Generically Good vs Evil and not the True Good..Plus in several situations
I know of teens who rejected the Gospel
But embraced Paganism BECAUSE LOR
Was read to them in...wait for it
Church!!! Ya, Tolkien may have to answer for his sincere attempt at allegory
Tolkien may have said elsewhere but I have not seen in his words say the LOR has Biblical imagery. I never saw it that way either but just saw it as a fictional story.

The truth in the OP is still wise regardless of the source.
 

Platosgal

Active member
Mar 17, 2020
282
179
43
#38
Tolkien may have said elsewhere but I have not seen in his words say the LOR has Biblical imagery. I never saw it that way either but just saw it as a fictional story.

The truth in the OP is still wise regardless of the source.
True
It resonates with a lot of people
But I am sure he meant it for good

The enemy and our ego's can use anything as a source to go around
The real truth
 

ToastAndTea

Well-known member
Jul 31, 2018
301
384
63
#39
“It is not the strength of the body, but the strength of the spirit.” — J.R.R. Tolkien

View attachment 224996

The Tennessee Register.
© 2003 Christopher Fenoglio.

When the moment calls for action, will you have the courage to act in a Christian way? Will you make up your mind to follow through with what is right, or will you shrink away and hope someone else will do it?

The courage to act may not come naturally. At first, Frodo wants to get rid of the Ring. When he learns that he has the One Ring of Power from Sauron....

Frodo struggles with the burden of the Ring. He has a strong desire to return to his comfortable life in the Shire and recounts his wishes to Gandalf.

“I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened,” he says. “So do all who live to see such times,” says Gandalf. “But it is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time given us.”

https://www.christopherfenoglio.com/frodos-choice-is-a-model-for-a-christian-life/
I have grown up with and always loved the books. I have never seen them as anything other than a work of fiction. The same is true of the Chronicles of Narmia. The intent of the author is what counts in this case, I think.