Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

I think we have all missed one CRITICAL feature & aspect (I think the most important aspect in fact) of the Church. More pointedly the mystery of the Church. That being the fact that the Church is now the MEDIATOR of Gods Universal Kingdom on the earth. Something never understood in ages past not in the least.

Going further there are hints in the OT of the Church. But the fullness of the Church in terms of its authority and mediation are never described.

Come to think of it it IS true that the Church HAS overtaken Israel in terms of the mediation of Gods kingdom (Matt 21:43). But no doubt Israel will once again be the PRIMARY mediator on the earth during the 70th week of Daniel.

Nevertheless Replacement Theology is a heresy. Gentiles are never Israelites under any circumstances. The nation Israel will never be extinguished and in fact will once again inherit the mantle of mediation on the earth. Though this mediation will be subject to the presence of Jesus Christ Himself as Lord on the earth.

God elected mediators-viceroys-regents of the earth starting with Adam.
This mediation was passed on to the patriarchs.
Passed on to the judges and prophets.
Passed on to the kings and Israel as a nation.
Passed on to the Apostles.
Passed on to the elders of the Church.
It WILL be passed on to Israel and the prophets once again.....at the 70th week of Daniel tribulation period.

As weird as this is going to sound - I cannot give you a thorough answer - due to current computer "limitations"...

My research on the topic is on a computer that I currently have no access to. And, it was long ago. And, I am working strictly from memory at the moment.

What I can say is that I believe John was on Patmos at/in the earlier time frame.

No doubt this post will be "shot down" by some others after I post it. I don't really care - y'all discuss or debate it if you want to - I really don't want to at this time...

In fact, I have gotten tired of this thread and have 'unwatched' it.

Curious, however - after 1000+ posts, has anyone actually discussed the verses referred to by the thread title???

No. Jesus Christ is the Mediator between God and man. 1 Tim 2:5

What verse/passage teaches that the church is a mediator?

The mystery was that God granted repentance to Gentiles. OT Jews didn't understand that.

I was thinking of that several pages ago.

Title:
Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

The verses cited in the OP are not less well known.
The first is about waiting for The Lord's return and that he has delivered us from the wrath of eternal punishment.

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead – Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The second verse may be be less well known among students of pretrib doctrine because it tells us clearly,
that the whole company of those who have believed will be relieved from our suffering at the 2nd coming.
The 2nd coming is expressly defined.

2 Thess 1

4 As a result, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God,
for which you indeed are suffering.

6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels

8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.


The OP reframed the verse with a pretib bais.
Inserting "(which is the purpose of the GT......a purpose not accorded to the Bride) "
and leaving out the surrounding contextual verses.

2Th1:7-8 -

"and to you being oppressed, repose [/rest] with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven, with His mighty angels,
in a fire of flame, inflicting vengeance on those not knowing God and on those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus..."




[see again Lk18:8's phrase "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"<--(latter words being) same phrase in Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] at the START of the future, specific, limited time-period (7-yr trib) of "judgments unfolding" including "7 angels having 7 trumpets..." and the "7 angels with the 7 LAST plagues [i.e. the 7 vials]"... That is, during "a period-of-time of JUDGMENTS" unfolding, not merely "a singular 24-hr day"... This also includes what is stated in 2Th2:10-12 "God shall send to them... SO THAT..." (this also involving the specified "period-of-time" referenced by Paul, in this overall CONTEXT--2 chpts)]

I see your point. However there is a dichotomy between "them" and "us", tribulation and relief, wrath and comfort.

Furthermore, the term "gathering together" (2 Thess 2:1) is a term used ONLY of a Christian assembly........used only twice. This term cannot fit in any Revelation end time wrath scenario.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1997&t=NKJV

Exactly, 2 groups. One for salvation one for damnation. Tribulation, even the great one isn't the damning wrath of God.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son
will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

'Gathering together'
I don't see why it doesn't fit end or any other time.
Don't forget he is living in us. 'The body of Christ' It seems like a perfect description. Actually it will be the first time
all Christians will be gathered together (assembled) as a whole. Every generation.

Greek transliteration English word order
de hyper ho parousia ho hēmeis kyrios Iēsous Christos kai hēmeis episynagōgē epi autos

English
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to him
It is linked in this sentence to the "parousia"

παρουσία (parousia)
presence, 2 Cor. 10:10; Phil. 2:12; a coming, arrival, advent, Phil. 1:26; Mt. 24:3, 27, 37, 39; 1 Cor. 15:23

Please first answer this simple question: Where are the Ephraimite tribes today? After believers dead and alive meets Christ Yeshua in the clouds, He establishes His Millennial Kingdom and only then reunite Ephraimite tribes with Judahite Jews...

What makes you think I endorse British Israelism? I reject it fully as the ploy of this world that will most probably bring about the Judaic false messiah, proclaiming himself the only god to be worshipped, whose temple in Jerusalem Israel is being prepared for him to enter by the heresy of British Christian zionism!! Please read my post above, as you clearly did not, if you say I am : "pursuing this British Isrealism".

Anna from the tribe of Asher was an immigrant Ephraimite migrant to Jewish Judea.

Benjaminites are Jews, they are one of the three southern tribes of Judea that was ruled by Rehoboam the Judahite. Judah, Benjamin en Levi made up the three Jewish tribes. The other eight and two half northern tribes are all Ephraimites. An Ephraimite can not be a Jew. One day Christ Yeshua will come and reunite Judahite Jews and Ephraimite Israelites, as one reunited Kingdom of Israel under Him in His Millennial Kingdom. Lord Rothschild, the British Monarchy and political zionism is doing this themselves, and will not wait for Christ Yeshua to return. It is good for Judahite Jews to have a homeland in southern Israel, Judea, to await the return of Christ Yeshua. It is not good for Jews to proclaim an earthly false messiah in a temple to be served as only god, before the return of Christ Yeshua with the dead and alive believers meeting him in the clouds. Northern Israel, with its former capitol Samaria was not belong promised by God to the Judahite Jews, but to the Ephraimite Israelites. Israel will be restored like that, in Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom, after believers meet Him in the clouds, when He comes to reunify Judah and Ephraim under His Judahite Kingship in Jerusalem, Israel as the Lion of Judah and ruler of the whole world.

Ezekiel 37 (New King James Version)

One Kingdom, One King
15Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16“As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

18“And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

21“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

24“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26Moreover I will [c]make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

The Great Apostasy
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Agreed, but maybe the word mediator is a bit misleading, as no one comes to the Father except through the Son. Giving you credit that it will be that part of Israel, being the Judaic political zionist's false messiah, granted the authority by Almighty God, that will rule the earth in Daniel's 70th week, and authority will be given to this false messiah to overcome even God's chosen elect.

As for the Millennial Kingdom of Christ Yeshua, commencing at the end of Daniel's 70th week, when believers resurrected and alive meets Christ Yeshua in the clouds, they from every tribe, tongue and nation will rule over all the earth as mediators/regents of Christ Yeshua's Millennial Kingdom:

Revelation 7 (New King James Version)

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation
9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” ... 14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Good day, BenjaminN!

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,
and by His stripes we are healed.

"Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification."

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come! All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation"

Do you believe the scriptures above?

Since Christ has taken upon himself the punishment (God's wrath) that brought us peace and we have been reconciled to God through faith in the Lord, how is it that you would put the church as being gathered at the end of Daniel's 70th week which would put the living church through God's entire wrath? During that last seven years God will be pouring out His wrath upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which would mean that if you have the church being caught up after these have taken place, it means that the living church would suffer the entire wrath of God, because that last seven years ends after the 7th bowl has been poured out, completing God's wrath.

Because Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, God's wrath no longer rests upon us. And therefore, we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, but must be removed before it begins.

Those who will be resurrected after God's wrath and after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, will be those great tribulation saints from every nation, tribe, people and language and who will have died during the great tribulation. The church however, will have been resurrected and the living changed to meet the Lord in the air prior to the first seal is opened which initiates God's wrath.

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

Click to expand...

This group above is in reference to the great tribulation saints and not the church. Previous to this, John was told to write to the seven churches. Now the elder is asking John who these in white robes are, which demonstrates that this not the church but is another group being introduced, which the elder refers to as the saints who have come out of the great tribulation. In further support of this, John doesn't know who they are.

It is important for us to discern between the church and the other groups mentioned i.e. great tribulation saints, 144,000, etc, as well the difference between the event when the Lord comes to gather His church, vs. the even of the Lord returning to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, both being being different events and taking place at different times and for different purposes.

Scripture reveals that your teaching of "multiple resurrections" at different times is "false"

There is one future resurrection of all, this takes place on the last day at the final judgement, John 5:28-29, John 6:39-40, John 12:48

The Resurrection Of "All"

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The Last Day Resurrection

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Last Day Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Pretty hard to argue against the quote of Irenaeus, the disciple of Polycarp, who walked with John the Apostle, who wrote the Revelation?

Domitian Reign 81-96AD

Quote Irenaeus: For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

Wikipedia: Domitian (/dəˈmɪʃən, -iən/; Latin: Domitianus; 24 October 51 – 18 September 96) was Roman emperor from 81 to 96. He was the son of Vespasian and the younger brother of Titus, his two predecessors on the throne, and the last member of the Flavian dynasty. During his reign, the authoritarian nature of his rule put him at sharp odds with the Senate, whose powers he drastically curtailed.

I do, the pre-trib rapture isnt found in scripture

There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I recommend a careful reading of Rev 19 and 20. There won't be a pre-Trib coming. Jesus comes to end the battle of Armageddon and to set up His Millennial kingdom. He resurrects/raptures all believers when He comes.

Jesus isnt setting up a Millennial Kingdom on "This Earth" it will be dissolved by fire (Fact)

There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Yes, the Bridegroom will come for His bride prior to His wrath.

Your error is the same as many others who claim that Rev.19 is where the Lord gathers His church.

Chapters 6 thru 18 is a detailed account of the wrath of God, with chapter 19:11-21 being a detailed account of the Lord and His church returning to the earth to end the age.

Rev.19:6-8 reveals the wedding of the Lamb with the resurrected and caught up bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14, the bride (armies in heaven) are wearing that same fine linen, white and clean that she will have just received and will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. This demonstrates without a doubt that the church/bride is already in heaven. For in order follow the Lord out of heaven we would already have to be in heaven. We also have an excerpt from Rev.17:14 also showing that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that those who will have been resurrected, changed and caught up, will be with the Lord as He returns.

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” - Rev.17:14

The error is that you and others continue to not recognize that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events, which take place at different times and with different purposes.

You also keep demonstrating that you don't understand what we are in Christ. We have been credited with His righteousness and have been reconciled to God, which means to be brought back from enmity to friendship through faith in Christ. You continue to ignore the fact that Jesus already satisfied God's wrath completely and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe.

According to scripture, believers are to comfort each other with the words that Christ is going to appear and transform the living believers immortal and glorified. But you and others continue to believe and teach the opposite by teaching that believers within the church are going to go through God's wrath and be gathered afterwards. If this was the case, there would be no comfort for one another, because we would be going through the same plagues of wrath that the wicked will be exposed to. Nor could it be called 'the Blessed Hope."

When the wicked will say 'Peace and security" then destruction will come upon them like a woman having birth pains, and they will not escape. Then immediately following that regarding believers it says, 'but you brothers are not in darkness that 'this day should take you by surprise like a thief.' The 'But you brothers" in 1 Thess.5:4 would immediately infer the opposite not escaping, i.e. 'but you brothers will escape.' How will they escape? By the event that Paul just described at the end of chapter 4, by being transformed and caught up.

If both the wicked and the righteous were going to go though the same time of God's wrath, what would the meaning of 'you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief?' What would be the difference between the two if they both go through the time of God's wrath? How would it not take us by surprise? There would be no difference, because you would have those in Christ exposed to the same wrath as the wicked. In case you want to use the false apologetic that God is going to protect the church during that time, I challenge you to fine anywhere within Revelation chapters 6 thru 18 where the word 'church' is even mentioned. Or anywhere within those chapters that state that the church will be protected. Even the saints who come out of the great tribulation period are not excluded from the plagues of wrath, nor from the beasts kingdom. For he will be given power to wage war against them and to conquer them during the last 3 1/2 years.

In further support regarding this, in the promise given to the church of Philadelphia and therefore all believers who endure patiently, Jesus said that He would keep believers out of the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole inhabited world.

The bottom line that I keep driving home, is that because Jesus already satisfied God's wrath which every believer deserves, we cannot and will not go through God's wrath. It's already been satisfied! This is a legal precedent which Jesus fulfilled. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ and therefore cannot and will not be exposed to God's coming wrath.

What do you say to those you are preaching Christ to? Do you say to them, 'the good news is that you have forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life. I'm sorry to say however, you still have to go through God's coming wrath. Sorry!'

And just to cut you off at the pass (in case you attempt to use this false apologetic), neither the apostles nor the first century church suffered the wrath of God, but they suffered what Jesus said they and we would suffer, which is trials and tribulation because of our faith in Christ, which is not the wrath of God, but comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. God's wrath however is something completely different and will come directly from God.

The other error in putting the church through God's wrath, is that many do not understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. They are going to be worse than anything that has come since man has been on the earth. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third, respectively) over half the earths population will have been killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not counting trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor any of the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. By the time the 7bowl has been poured out which will complete God's wrath, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled. This is why Jesus said that if that time was allowed to go on any longer no one on earth would be left alive.

No matter what you believe, the church has to be gathered prior to that first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

Revelation Chapter 19 is nothing more than the second coming of Jesus Christ,end ofthis world in final judgement, the marriage supper takes place "After The Final Judgement"

Dispensationalism that you teach, does nothing more than use false claims of a pre-trib rapture, when the scripture presented is nothing more than the Second Coming, Last Day Resurrection

Smoke, Mirrors, Rabbits And Hats?

We See The Magicians At Work, We Ain't Fooled

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.