Faith without works issue .

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#21
Actually he is trying to help those who claim to have faith look deep inside to help determine if their own faith is real. Chapter 1 and 2 is al about searching ourselves
Did you come to that conclusion from reading what he actually said?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,195
6,508
113
#22
Me? No, it is not a conclusion. I never conclude anything about the Word, the Author does, however this is my determination from faith.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#23
Abraham was justified when he had faith in gen 15
Verse saying this please...

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham's faith spoken of in Genesis 15 was not made perfect, complete until he offered up Isaac in ch. 22.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
Did you come to that conclusion from reading what he actually said?
Well of course.

Why else would I come to that conclusion

Lets look

Chapter 1: 2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces [a]patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be [b]perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Testing of YOUR FAITH

He then spends the next vew verses in this context of having yoru faith tested and enduring.

Next:
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

Again written to individuals. A command to each of them. DO THIS.. He then again spends the next few verses in this topic..

chapter 2: 2 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.

Again. A command to induviduals. Be doers not hearers only

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors

Again, Spoken to induviduals. IF YOU DO THIS. The whole book up to this point is to test yourself. DO you do these things or do you do those.

after all these things, He comes to our passage

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

1. He does not say they had faith, He saaid they claimed to have faith.
2. In context. He is saying, all these things I have told you up to now. Are these you or are you just a hearer not a doer?
3. He follows this by asking them to show their own faith without their works, and he will show his with his works.

He is not telling us to judge them, He is telling them to judge themselves.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,195
6,508
113
#25
I will paraphrase due to my vision lack. It is written, Abraham believed God and this was reckoned to him as righteous nous.

It is certain all who have the gift of faith and believe willunderstand what they understand by the Holy Spirit.

To simply ask for verses is also simply questioning the faith of others be it by the Holy Spirit or in error, so you silly verse need only displays ignorance of the word, distrust of all in the family or some kind of judgment stance. The written code kills, but, the Spirit gives life. Text without Spirit from god is useless except for death.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#26
He is not telling us to judge them, He is telling them to judge themselves.
He's not telling us anything. He's addressing the twelve tribes scattered abroad. This is none other than the nation of Israel. All throughout scripture the term "twelve tribes" is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole and never a term attached to the body of Christ...ever. To use it in this manner would contradict the rest of scripture.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,195
6,508
113
#27
The New Jerusalem to come down from our Father is the capital of the eternal Israel. Pau teaches we are adopted children of Israel and fellow heirs with Israel.

Israel has a translation worthy of knowing but you will not believe others when they share fro faith, s you will not believe what I could afford you. Research it for yourself, you will find text on it from many sources.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#28
In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
Exactly.

As I've already explained here twice, the whole thing with Abram/Abraham pertained to his "seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

Abram's/Abraham's initial "belief" or faith in Christ was accounted unto him for righteousness.

However, Abraham's "belief" wasn't tested until the time came that God told him to sacrifice Isaac, his son through whose lineage or descendancy Christ was to come.

Sad to say, in the minds of some people here, Abram/Abraham would have been lost if he had died before the whole testing thing with Isaac took place because, in their completely distorted beliefs, Abraham wasn't truly righteous up until then.

It's utter nonsense, but people will believe what they want to believe.

Anyhow, what James was basically saying was that our actions need to line up with that which we profess to believe in.

I heard the following story from a woman many years ago, and it might help to illustrate what I'm saying.

This woman was a 6th grade Sunday school teacher at a church in NYC that had metal bars on the outside of the windows in the classrooms (if you've ever been to NYC, then you would understand why).

Her teaching assignment that day was this verse:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. " (Acts 1:8)

She told her students that the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "power" is "dynamis", from which we get our English word "dynamite", and then she proceeded to pull what looked like a stick of dynamite out of her pocketbook (it was actually a roadside flare with a fuse attached to it).

She also produced a lighter, and she proceeded to move the flame from the lighter ever closer to what her students thought was truly a stick of dynamite, and their eyes widened with fear as she did so.

She then lit the fuse, while pretending it was accidental, and, in feigned horror, she gave what appeared to be the stick of dynamite to her co-worker, and told him to throw it out the window.

Well, seeing how the windows all had metal bars on the outside of them, the "dynamite" bounced off of the same, and landed on the floor of the classroom.

Her students' reactions?

They literally ran for their lives, and nearly trampled each other as they fled down the hallway.

When they were finally retrieved and brought back to classroom, the teacher told and asked them the following.

She said:

You ran for your lives because you BELIEVED that this was truly a stick of dynamite.

Now, let me ask you a question:

Do you truly BELIEVE in Jesus?

Her point, in my estimation, is the same point that James was seeking to make, namely this:

If we truly believe in something or someone, then our corresponding actions ought to align themselves with that or whom we profess to believe in.

It's really that simple, but some will never see or get it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#29
The New Jerusalem to come down from our Father is the capital of the eternal Israel. Pau teaches we are adopted children of Israel and fellow heirs with Israel.

Israel has a translation worthy of knowing but you will not believe others when they share fro faith, s you will not believe what I could afford you. Research it for yourself, you will find text on it from many sources.
Research every reference to the twelve tribes. It is always a reference to the nation of Israel, God's physical people. It is never a reference to the body of Christ or the spiritual seed of Abraham or adopted children.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#30
It would seem when our Father deems any man righteous, this, in itself would be justification.
Jesus was raised for our Justification.
Romans 4:25

“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#31
A little more context.
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Law of liberty??
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#32
How much works is required so that you do not have dead faith?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#33
And the observation as to who the Author is writing to.
Verse 1 chapter 1 .
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#34
And the observation as to who the Author is writing to.
Verse 1 chapter 1 .
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Big deal.

Are you suggesting that what James wrote only applied to the twelve tribes of Israel?

If so, then I guess that what Paul wrote to the Romans only applied to the Romans?

Damn!

I hope that I haven't shared Romans 10:9-10 with any non-Romans...
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#36
Big deal.

Are you suggesting that what James wrote only applied to the twelve tribes of Israel?

If so, then I guess that what Paul wrote to the Romans only applied to the Romans?

Damn!

I hope that I haven't shared Romans 10:9-10 with any non-Romans...
the lengths people will go to
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#37
Big deal.

Are you suggesting that what James wrote only applied to the twelve tribes of Israe
If so, then I guess that what Paul wrote to the Romans only applied to the Romans?

Damn!

I hope that I haven't shared Romans 10:9-10 with any non-Romans...
Does the book of Romans begin with " to the Romans at rome " ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#38
Big deal.

Are you suggesting that what James wrote only applied to the twelve tribes of Israel?

If so, then I guess that what Paul wrote to the Romans only applied to the Romans?

Damn!

I hope that I haven't shared Romans 10:9-10 with any non-Romans...
Here's a verse to help with who Paul is writing to . The bible is very useful . It tells us who the Author is writing to and everything. Rom 1
7¶To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Just like here in James
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

so observation questions .
Who is Paul writing to?
who is James writing to ?
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#39
Here's a verse to help with who Paul is writing to . The bible is very useful . It tells us who the Author is writing to and everything. Rom 1
7¶To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Just like here in James
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

so observation questions .
Who is Paul writing to?
who is James writing to ?
Whose point are you trying to prove?

Yours or mine?

Do you honestly believe that what Paul wrote "to all that be in Rome" only applied to them?

Didn't you just tell me on another thread yesterday that you preach Romans 10:9-10 to people on the streets where you live?

Do you live in Rome?

Seriously, just give up this whole "two different gospels" nonsense that you believe in.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#40
Whose point are you trying to prove?

Yours or mine?

Do you honestly believe that what Paul wrote "to all that be in Rome" only applied to them?

Didn't you just tell me on another thread yesterday that you preach Romans 10:9-10 to people on the streets where you live?

Do you live in Rome?

Seriously, just give up this whole "two different gospels" nonsense that you believe in.
This thread is about James 2 .