Faith without works issue .

Faith itself is A work we must be in Jesus Christ efforts not our own.

I love it how people try to use an act Abraham did decades after God declaired him righteous as the means of his salvation.

I am suprised God had to wait so long before abraham offered his son to know if his faith was justified or not.

I guess thank God he did not die in between those times, he would have been lost forever,

Just so that I can better understand what you, Guojing (I don't need anybody else answering for you), actually believe, can you please elaborate on your use of the word "us" in what I quoted?

Does this "us" mean New Testament Christians, believing Gentiles, something else...?

Please be as specific in your response as you can be so I don't somehow miscomprehend what you're saying.

For example, if your "us" refers to New Testament Christians, then does that pertain to both believing Israelites/Jews and Gentiles alike.

In other words, please tell me specifically what you believe a Gentile needs to do TODAY to be saved, and specifically what an Israelite or Jew needs to do TODAY to be saved.

Thank you.

Perhaps you need to look up the definition of 'justify' yourself, (i already gave you a definition) to declare righteous.
Impute=counted as righteous. I think you are trying to pick a fight when there is none.
I'd suggest you build your theology of Justification from Romans chapters 1 through 4 rather than James 2:14-26. Just a suggestion.

If James followed your same premise that righteousness = justification, why would he say the following in James 2?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Surely James would know that Abraham believed God many years before he offered Isaac. So he agreed that faith/belief was the reason for the imputation of righteousness, as he stated in vs 23.

Yet, he immediately concluded in the next verse that his justification was actually by works.

I have to do a quick "hit and run" because I only have a minute, but can't you see that James truly did say that "righteousness = justification"?

Just read verse 24 again:

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You seem to be reading this verse as if it said:

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith", but it actually ends with "and not by faith ONLY".

In other words, James wasn't denying that Abram/Abraham was "justified by faith" or that righteousness was imputed unto him when he believed God.

Instead, he's just saying that he wasn't "justified by faith ONLY".

Again, if you go back to previous posts that I've made here and actually take the time to read them, then you will see that there were two aspects to Abram's/Abraham's "belief" in relation to his "seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

Quickly, here is the account:

Genesis chapter 15

[1] After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
[2] And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
[3] And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
[4] And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[5] And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[6] And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Again, Abram's/Abraham's "seed" (vs. 5) "is Christ" (Gal. 3:16)

With such being the case, when God told Abram/Abraham, "Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be", he was actually telling him that the number of Christians, in that "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29), was ultimately going to be like the stars in number.

THIS is what's actually transpiring here.

The first aspect of Abram's/Abraham's "belief" was in relation to his coming "seed, which is Christ", and this is what made him righteous in God's eyes to begin with.

The second aspect of Abram's/Abraham's "belief" pertained to his "seed, which is Christ" not only coming through his descendancy, but also through the lineage of Isaac.

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Gen. 21:12)

In relation to this second aspect, Abram's/Abraham's "belief" wasn't tested until the time came that God told him to sacrifice Isaac, and he attempted to do so. In other words, he had such a "belief" or such "faith" in God's promise that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" that he believed that God would have to raise Isaac from the dead in order to fulfill his promise. This second aspect is where the "works" part of justification comes into play, but it in no way, shape, or form negates the first aspect or the righteousness which was imputed unto him by faith PRIOR TO this point in time.

Anyhow, I rushed that response because I'm busy with other things right now, but I hope that it makes sense.

I was comparing vs 23 and vs 24, and I noted that Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6, years before he offered Isaac, something James would have also known.

You are only looking at vs 24.

I understand that.

I specifically mentioned vs 24 because it says that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith ONLY".

Again, Abram/Abraham, according to this verse, was "JUSTIFIED...by faith", and James basically used that interchangeably with "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (vs. 23), so when crossnote equated the two, justification and righteousness, he was doing exactly what James did.

That was one of my intended points.

Gotta go.

Good night.

Perhaps you need to look up the definition of 'justify' yourself, (i already gave you a definition) to declare righteous.
Impute=counted as righteous. I think you are trying to pick a fight when there is none.
I'd suggest you build your theology of Justification from Romans chapters 1 through 4 rather than James 2:14-26. Just a suggestion.

I was comparing vs 23 and vs 24, and I noted that Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:6, years before he offered Isaac, something James would have also known.

You are only looking at vs 24.

Its everything but what James actually says lol 😆

I realise that's what happens . James gets interpreted through romans .

When was Abraham saved ? ( from scripture )Was it Genesis 15? in light Hebrews 11:8, which took place in Genesis 12?

When were you saved? (from Scripture).

James 2 v Romans 4? Answer :
Old Testament salvation is not like New Testament salvation—before or after the giving of the Law. In the Old Testament (anywhere from Genesis to Malachi, and up until Matt. 27; cf. Heb. 9:16–17),there is no new birth, no spiritual circumcision, no Body of Christ, and no spiritual redemption of an individual sinner. All of those things are afforded to New Testament believers.

Fact: You are saved, justified, redeemed, and sanctified in one shot. Fact: Abraham wasn’t