Scripture that supports soulless humans before Adam

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

having corrupted natures isn't relevant to whether a person sins in ignorance or in full comprehension of the wickedness they are engaging in.

for example a man doesn't know God, and blasphemes saying God doesn't know something.
that is sin, but it is different than a man who knows God, and knows that nothing is hidden from Him, yet acts like it is.

a person may lie because they don't know the truth, and another person may tell the same lie even though they know it is false. Adam was not deceived. 1 Timothy 2:14. Adam's eating of the tree is fundamentally different than Woman's eating of it.

::Sigh::

It's saying we are in a fallen reality from original sin. Wake up.

posthuman · Mar 7, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:

it's saying there are two modes of sin:

after the manner of the transgression of Adam
not after the manner of the transgression of Adam

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

posthuman said:

okay, so there is a difference between sin and fallen? Do you agree that this place is fallen? This place became fallen somehow. Are you agreeing with me that satan caused it to fall after being cast out? Just being fallen didn't give us the ability to sin here. Something had to happen to unleash that ..like what happened in the Garden.

throughfaith · Mar 7, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:

God saying ' and it was good ' is not in keeping with Adam and eve stood over millions of years of death .

posthuman · Mar 7, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:

i do believe in the corruption of the earth and of the heart of man. i even believe in total depravity.

but Romans 5:12 is not establishing that there was another race of mankind before God created the first man, and it is not any kind of evidence whatsoever that the material world is sinful on the basis of it having physical existence.

we have free will. the angels have free will. there has always been the ability to sin, else Satan could not have, because God is not the author of sin, and Satan absolutely 100% fell before mankind did.

Satan deceived Woman in order to cause Adam to fall. he used her as a proxy to get to him, because he could not deceive him and he would not commit sin on his own. Satan forced him into a dilemma by fooling his wife and leading her to sin. Adam had to choose between abandoning her, joining her, offering himself as a sacrifice to redeem her, or taking no action and waiting to bring her to God. he chose to join her, and in doing so sin entered the world ((even though she was first in transgression)) -- this has nothing to do with the creation of physical dust; it happened long before Adam himself was created, for he was created out of dust.
what Paul is getting at in Romans is that sin entered the ((physical, material + spiritual)) world through Adam and polluted all of it, both through those who know righteousness and neglect to do it, and through those who do not know righteousness and neglect it unwittingly.

this is not about Satan creating the physical universe. this is not about wave collapse being a result of evil. this is not about a mysterious unknown race of soulless men not mentioned or even hinted at in scripture. this is not about spirit becoming linked to flesh. this is not about baryonic & non-baryonic matter. this is not about mystical lies and it's not about vain blasphemy.
it's about free will, about the passing of death through bloodline, and about sinning in ignorance vs sinning in open rebellion.

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

posthuman said:

i do believe in the corruption of the earth and of the heart of man. i even believe in total depravity.

but Romans 5:12 is not establishing that there was another race of mankind before God created the first man, and it is not any kind of evidence whatsoever that the material world is sinful on the basis of it having physical existence.

we have free will. the angels have free will. there has always been the ability to sin, else Satan could not have, because God is not the author of sin, and Satan absolutely 100% fell before mankind did.

Satan deceived Woman in order to cause Adam to fall. he used her as a proxy to get to him, because he could not deceive him and he would not commit sin on his own. Satan forced him into a dilemma by fooling his wife and leading her to sin. Adam had to choose between abandoning her, joining her, offering himself as a sacrifice to redeem her, or taking no action and waiting to bring her to God. he chose to join her, and in doing so sin entered the world ((even though she was first in transgression)) -- this has nothing to do with the creation of physical dust; it happened long before Adam himself was created, for he was created out of dust.
what Paul is getting at in Romans is that sin entered the ((physical, material + spiritual)) world through Adam and polluted all of it, both through those who know righteousness and neglect to do it, and through those who do not know righteousness and neglect it unwittingly.

this is not about Satan creating the physical universe. this is not about wave collapse being a result of evil. this is not about a mysterious unknown race of soulless men not mentioned or even hinted at in scripture. this is not about spirit becoming linked to flesh. this is not about baryonic & non-baryonic matter. this is not about mystical lies and it's not about vain blasphemy.
it's about free will, about the passing of death through bloodline, and about sinning in ignorance vs sinning in open rebellion.

You didn't catch my view change. This place isn't sin anymore ..it is fallen. It is in darkness. God the Father is limiting His own knowledge of it. We are separated from God the Father here. If something wasn't physical ..it was before Satan was cast out. So the question is, did humans have souls beforehand? I'm admitting that the Garden is physical now ..just without decay, death, or entropy.

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

throughfaith said:

Yeah, uhh, things changed after satan was cast out.

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

posthuman said:

i do believe in the corruption of the earth and of the heart of man. i even believe in total depravity.

but Romans 5:12 is not establishing that there was another race of mankind before God created the first man, and it is not any kind of evidence whatsoever that the material world is sinful on the basis of it having physical existence.

we have free will. the angels have free will. there has always been the ability to sin, else Satan could not have, because God is not the author of sin, and Satan absolutely 100% fell before mankind did.

Satan deceived Woman in order to cause Adam to fall. he used her as a proxy to get to him, because he could not deceive him and he would not commit sin on his own. Satan forced him into a dilemma by fooling his wife and leading her to sin. Adam had to choose between abandoning her, joining her, offering himself as a sacrifice to redeem her, or taking no action and waiting to bring her to God. he chose to join her, and in doing so sin entered the world ((even though she was first in transgression)) -- this has nothing to do with the creation of physical dust; it happened long before Adam himself was created, for he was created out of dust.
what Paul is getting at in Romans is that sin entered the ((physical, material + spiritual)) world through Adam and polluted all of it, both through those who know righteousness and neglect to do it, and through those who do not know righteousness and neglect it unwittingly.

this is not about Satan creating the physical universe. this is not about wave collapse being a result of evil. this is not about a mysterious unknown race of soulless men not mentioned or even hinted at in scripture. this is not about spirit becoming linked to flesh. this is not about baryonic & non-baryonic matter. this is not about mystical lies and it's not about vain blasphemy.
it's about free will, about the passing of death through bloodline, and about sinning in ignorance vs sinning in open rebellion.

Maybe I should be giving the credit of the wave collapse thing to God. God could design the Universe and then set the history to match whatever He physically made. Satan could still be disorder though ..so he can be the reason for the lameness that is death, decay, and entropy. A fallen state.

Sin can be about the heart again.

posthuman · Mar 7, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:

as i understand QM waves collapse upon observation. Consciousness is a fundamental part of the basis of the universe; there is no universe when there is no Universal Observer. there is only one consciousness that observes all things, and by Him all things have their being. Satan's not omniscient -- the particle-like aspect of Creation demonstrates, in fact requires ((if you think it through)) that it has an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent Creator. the very existence of creation proves the existence of God, and testifies of His eternal qualities -- just like Romans 1 says, long before anyone on earth understood the science of these things

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

posthuman said:

as i understand QM waves collapse upon observation. Consciousness is a fundamental part of the basis of the universe; there is no universe when there is no Universal Observer. there is only one consciousness that observes all things, and by Him all things have their being. Satan's not omniscient -- the particle-like aspect of Creation demonstrates, in fact requires ((if you think it through)) that it has an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent Creator. the very existence of creation proves the existence of God, and testifies of His eternal qualities -- just like Romans 1 says, long before anyone on earth understood the science of these things

YES! I like where this is headed. Could I sell you on levels of observation? ..like something that lets God observe all, but allows him to muffle sin?

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

posthuman said:

as i understand QM waves collapse upon observation. Consciousness is a fundamental part of the basis of the universe; there is no universe when there is no Universal Observer. there is only one consciousness that observes all things, and by Him all things have their being. Satan's not omniscient -- the particle-like aspect of Creation demonstrates, in fact requires ((if you think it through)) that it has an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent Creator. the very existence of creation proves the existence of God, and testifies of His eternal qualities -- just like Romans 1 says, long before anyone on earth understood the science of these things

I wonder if the Universal Wave and the Universal Observer could be the same thing ..God.

throughfaith · Mar 7, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:

I try to stick to what's revealed and not create a novel on what the bible doesn't say .

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

Eating the fruit caused a fallen state and the first sin.

Is the last Adam about the first to last sin?

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

Is the moon still there if nobody is looking at it?
Yes, because it is large enough for God to care about observing it. You have to get smaller than a virus to get to the size that God isn't worried about unless someone is going to interact with it.

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

It's the size an object can't entangle with itself in superposition.

It is where the boundary between QM and GR is.

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

Could there be a natural boundary between local and non-local via the size something can't entangle with itself anymore while in superposition?

God is the Universal Wave, so He is the smaller particles that can entangle with themselves. He just doesn't enact wave-collapse unless it is necessary.

pittsburghjoe · Mar 7, 2021

A fallen state = age, death, decay, and entropy. You can be about yourself separated from God the Father ..you can sin.

The age is the amount of time you spent in a fallen state.

pittsburghjoe · Mar 8, 2021

Does this answer the measurement problem and observer effect?

Is wave collapse something that isn't entangled with God anymore?

Entangled with God because He is infinite and so is superposition.

God still knows of something after it is wave collapsed.

Something can't be entangled with God if it is too large to be entangled with itself or if it is observed/measured/decohered/fallen.

You need God for wave collapse to physical particles. Does that mean creation is still happening?

CS1 · Mar 8, 2021

pittsburghjoe said:

“I was beside Him (God) as a master worker… I rejoiced over His habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men”
Proverbs 8.30,31

I wonder if “sons of men” could mean there were humans without souls before Adam. Did Jesus want to give these humans souls?

“Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness”
Genesis 1.26

Is there something preventing man from existing first before They made them in Their image? Could, in Their image, mean to have a soul?

Would this destroy the evolution excuse?

yes the word of God prevents the existence of man before God said " Let us make man in our image".

pittsburghjoe · Mar 8, 2021

CS1 said:

"Let us make man" could mean man already existed.

Scripture that supports soulless humans before Adam

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