Why do Calvinists believe things the bible doesnt say ?

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oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#21
The ones He addressed in Revelation was His church, not the world.
Revelation 3:20 is clearly addressed to all men and you know it. We cannot turn a blind eye to your deceitful postings.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This shows us how a man gets into the Church in the first place.

None of what you have quoted implies any free will for unregenerate man to choose to believe in Jesus.
This is the only way to Salvation, any you have denied it. Jesus died for all men, and you come behind and tell men that this invitation to Salvation is not for them. You stand in a dangerous place.

Mark
10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and [his] disciples rebuked those that brought [them].
10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#22
The ones He addressed in Revelation was His church, not the world.

None of what you have quoted implies any free will for unregenerate man to choose to believe in Jesus.
Eph 1 .13
1 cor 1.21 does however. Irresistible grace is said no where in scripture. Not one major doctrine of Calvinism is said in scripture. Why is that ? Can God communicate directly or not ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#23
The ones He addressed in Revelation was His church, not the world.

None of what you have quoted implies any free will for unregenerate man to choose to believe in Jesus.
For your system to hold it needs to provide one scripture which says man cannot believe the Gospel unless regenerated first. Why didn't God say this ? Was it too difficult? Why is everything inferred?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
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#24
Revelation 3:20 is clearly addressed to all men and you know it. We cannot turn a blind eye to your deceitful postings.
I would add "all unsaved people professing to be Christians" (since it was a church that was addressed). The words used by Christ to describe the spiritual state of the Laodiceans cannot possible apply to genuine Christians.

Five Point Calvinism is an attack on the true Gospel just as much as Sacramentalism (or any other -ism). The Reformers had a golden opportunity to present the true Bible Gospel. But they allowed Augustine and others to influence them so that the Gospel was distorted. The problem is that Calvinists have been brainwashed (just like JWs) and no Scripture can penetrate the barrier of lies perpetrated by TULIP. Thus we have well-known preachers and teachers repeating this nonsense even when they have full access to the Bible.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
1,014
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New Zealand
#26
Ya um.. revelation 3:20.. the context isn't about receiving eternal life.

It's about churches.

I used to see this is the 4 Spiritual Laws booklet from campus Crusade. The verse standing alone could be about receiving Christ as Saviour but the verses around it are about something different
 

inukubo

Active member
Jun 27, 2019
169
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#27
Since you want verses, here's a few to get you started. Try to think about what they are actually saying and not do mental gymnastics to try to justify your philosophical presuppositions. (I know it happens, because I did it myself for the first 20+ years of my life. It's so liberating to read Scripture for what it actually says and not try to reinterpret it to fit my own beliefs.)

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21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. (John 5:21)

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. (John 6:44-45)

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10:27-29)

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:39-30)

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Romans 9:18)

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— (Ephesians 1:4-5)

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved…8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:4-5,8-9)

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14)

9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. (1 Timothy 9-10)
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance. (1 Peter 1:1-2)

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come. (Revelation 17:8)
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
4,814
2,801
113
#28
This is a serious question .
Let's look at ' regeneration precedes faith ' This doctrine colours the calvinists entire way they view the bible. You would think they have a verse which actually says this or a verse that says man cannot believe the Gospel. What you will find with all 5 points of Calvinism, is that all their major Doctrines do not have a verse that says what they believe.
All it would take to prove any of their major Doctrines would be a verse that SAYS what they claim the bible ' teaches ' . What Calvinism is built on is ' syllogism s' ..Each major Doctrine never has any verse actually saying what they claim, so it has to be inferred . Like this ' Because we know point a) is this ,this leads to b) and therfore leads to c) and the result is d) . Without fail this is Calvinism in a nut shell .
Watch out for this is conversation . They will usually want to set the premise first. Starting with a point you may agree upon . Basically something like this. Usually starting with the will of man. " You agree that man is totally depraved dont you ? " Erm yes I think so "
Well he cannot do anything good or anything to please God right ? " I guess so " , well believing the Gospel would be a good thing right " , Sure " , Well how does he come to believe the Gospel then " ....
Another one is " Why did you believe the Gospel and another didn't, were you more clever ?

Then the atonement/ universalism trick .
" You don't believe Jesus died for all without exception do you ? that would make you a universalist right? So you do believe the atonement is limited correct? Well we also, limited to whom God chose before the foundation of the world. We all believe in limited atonement right?
Ok if you can't see what's wrong in the last point it may be because you also have calvinistic presuppositions that need letting go of .
Thought s ?
I don't know anyone who was saved by an "ism". Mostly such arguments are divisive, fruitless and a result of spiritual pride. Everyone believes for a reason. If it is only the result of logic and human understanding, it will be vain. Spiritual things are spiritually understood. People ask me if I believe in predestination. I say yes. That's because the Bible says so. Is it God's will that all be saved? Yes. How do I reconcile the apparent contradictions? I don't. One day, everything will be made clear. Until then, I take God at His word. If I gain understanding, as I have done with some of God's word, it is a bonus. When my son was a toddler, he was fascinated by the house lights. He'd get me to pick him up and he would switch them on and off. He didn't know anything about power generation, the electrical system or electrical theory. All he knew was how to turn on the lights. That's what Christians need to know primarily. How to get God's light and how to walk in it. You don't need a theological degree for that.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#29
Revelation 3:20 is clearly addressed to all men and you know it. We cannot turn a blind eye to your deceitful postings.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
No, you are not speaking truth now. This is not addressed to the whole world, read the context. The addressee is the Laodicean church.

This shows us how a man gets into the Church in the first place.

This is the only way to Salvation, any you have denied it. Jesus died for all men, and you come behind and tell men that this invitation to Salvation is not for them. You stand in a dangerous place.

Mark
10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and [his] disciples rebuked those that brought [them].
10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Nobody here has forbidden anybody to come to Christ. Do you have any Bible verse that says that fallen mankind has "a free will" to "choose" to follow Christ? Or do you only speak your own opinion?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#30
I don't know anyone who was saved by an "ism". Mostly such arguments are divisive, fruitless and a result of spiritual pride. Everyone believes for a reason. If it is only the result of logic and human understanding, it will be vain. Spiritual things are spiritually understood. People ask me if I believe in predestination. I say yes. That's because the Bible says so. Is it God's will that all be saved? Yes. How do I reconcile the apparent contradictions? I don't. One day, everything will be made clear. Until then, I take God at His word. If I gain understanding, as I have done with some of God's word, it is a bonus. When my son was a toddler, he was fascinated by the house lights. He'd get me to pick him up and he would switch them on and off. He didn't know anything about power generation, the electrical system or electrical theory. All he knew was how to turn on the lights. That's what Christians need to know primarily. How to get God's light and how to walk in it. You don't need a theological degree for that.
Every Christian should believe ' predestination ' its a word found in our bible . It means to set a destination ahead of time . It means after a person is saved he is ' Predestined ' to the Adoption which happens when the Lord returns . Rom 8.23
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

And its not about being saved by an ism therfore we don't contend earnestly for the faith . Were saved by the Gospel. Which certain ' isms ' teach false gospels. I believe there is no Gospel in Calvinism .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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#31
Since you want verses, here's a few to get you started. Try to think about what they are actually saying and not do mental gymnastics to try to justify your philosophical presuppositions. (I know it happens, because I did it myself for the first 20+ years of my life. It's so liberating to read Scripture for what it actually says and not try to reinterpret it to fit my own beliefs.)

---

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. (John 5:21)

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. (John 6:44-45)

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10:27-29)

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:39-30)

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Romans 9:18)

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— (Ephesians 1:4-5)

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved…8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:4-5,8-9)

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14)

9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. (1 Timothy 9-10)
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance. (1 Peter 1:1-2)

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come. (Revelation 17:8)
Each verse doesn't ' SAY ' What you believe about them. Just quoting verses doesn't mean they SAY what you mean.. You'd have to show a verse with the explanation you think its SAYING . One verse at a time . I'm meaning literally a verse that SAYS the thing believed. Not inferred .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#32
No, you are not speaking truth now. This is not addressed to the whole world, read the context. The addressee is the Laodicean church.

Nobody here has forbidden anybody to come to Christ. Do you have any Bible verse that says that fallen mankind has "a free will" to "choose" to follow Christ? Or do you only speak your own opinion?
Do you have a verse that says ' man cannot believe the Gospel, unless regenerated first ' ? Anywhere that says ' irresistible grace ' ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#33
Here's an example of what I mean by verses that literally ' SAYS' the thing you believe.
Eph 1.13
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
A clear verse that SAYS what I believe about how we are saved .

I believe that God is pleased to say those that believe .
1 cor 1.21
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
This verse SAYS it .

I have a verse that SAYS what the Gospel is .
Rom 1.16

A verse that SAYS what the Gospel is today .
1 cor 15 .1-4

A verse that SAYS how to be saved
Rom 10,9-15

A verse that SAYS Jesus died for the whole world.
1 John 2:2

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

There's nothing to be ' inferred ' . We don't need to go to the greek ect .
Clear verses that SAY what they mean and mean what they say .

Calvinism doesn't do this . Take all the favourite calvinist proof texts and notice it doesn't SAY what they teach. Also you will notice a few verses before and after always refutes what they teach about the proof text they are zooming in on . EVERYTIME .
 

inukubo

Active member
Jun 27, 2019
169
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#34
Each verse doesn't ' SAY ' What you believe about them. Just quoting verses doesn't mean they SAY what you mean.. You'd have to show a verse with the explanation you think its SAYING . One verse at a time . I'm meaning literally a verse that SAYS the thing believed. Not inferred .
God reveals Himself plainly to us through His Word, as you have shown with the verses you shared and which I agree with completely. We don't need extra explanatory notes after every Bible verse to tell us what it means. The plain meaning is there for all of us to see if we only put aside our own biases.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#35
God reveals Himself plainly to us through His Word, as you have shown with the verses you shared and which I agree with completely. We don't need extra explanatory notes after every Bible verse to tell us what it means. The plain meaning is there for all of us to see if we only put aside our own biases.
Amen .
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#36
Do you have any Bible verse that says that fallen mankind has "a free will" to "choose" to follow Christ?
John
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#37
This thread has been going for a while now. Is there a Calvinist on here who can answer the challenge ? Just one verse that SAYS what they believe? Surely there's one to get the ball rolling? And i don't mean inference. I don't mean " well the sheep hear his voice ....or " well lazurus couldn't blah blah, " Well those in the flesh can't please God blah blah..." . No a verse that says the thing you are claiming.

Heres an example .
Eph 1.13 Says the order of salvation .
1 cor .21 says what pleases God .
Romans 10 .9 says how to appropriate salvation .
1 cor 15 ,1-4 Says what the gospel today is .
And on and on and . Literal verses that SAY .
Now notice what happens when the calvinist offers answers to this . look out for inference and syllogism.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,696
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#38
God made the Truth about Salvation so simple and clear. Jesus came down from Heaven and died on the Cross to make it possible for all men to come to Him by simply believing Him and receiving Him into their hearts. Any man may do this any day. The Blood of Jesus made this possible.

Romans
5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
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#39
...for all those who open their hearts door to Him.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice,
and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Isaiah 45:22 + Revelation 3:20 :)