Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

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Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
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Ok, Africa was saved by the word of faith cult? Then they were not saved? Yet we know full well that Voodoo is very real there. And cultural practices affect how one minister there. have you served in Africa? have you been there? because Nigeria has seen a revival and much help from the local church in the United States. We have 10 % of our church are from Africa and they go with other and minister all the time. We have built 5 wells to bring water to the African people. many of them are doctors in our church and have and highly educated and pentecostal.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...11B196D737560A0D88E811B196D737560&FORM=WRVORC
 

Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
169
47
28
Very Encouraging, I believe I can present {outlier?} the Biblical
answer for my view in the continualist/cessationist debate...
------------------------------------------
Paul Christiansen said: "Context Is Vital

So, firstly, we must examine the Scriptures being quoted by teachers who are opposing the supernatural move of the Spirit to see the context, to whom and to what purpose they were written. Next we need to see how we can recognise {sp?} false prophets, teaching, signs and wonders manifest in these modern times, and whether they are consistent with the Scriptures that are being quoted by those opposing the current manifestation of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit.

But, he also states:

"There is no way that a person who has no experience in the spiritual gifts can know the difference between the genuine and misuse of spiritual gifts. Because of this, we can totally ignore any comments from Cessationists!"

Wait, I am defined as a cessationist because I oppose
The Supernatural Moving Of The Holy Spirit?
Then, Exactly WHAT should I call:

Baptism "BY" The Holy Spirit, The Washing Of
Regeneration
, Forgiveness of sins, The Circumcision of the
heart Without hands, Translation Into The Body Of CHRIST,
And, Receiving The Indwelling Holy Spirit, Which Is God's
Operation For His Eternal Salvation, According To His HOLY Word?


I certainly am NOT opposed to That "Supernatural Moving
Of The Holy Spirit."
So, therefore, I Cannot be defined as
a "cessationist"? Oh, what he {PC} Really Meant {under the
Assumption} "the gifts are active Today, Under GRACE,
is that:

"I oppose The Gifts of tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge,
and healings, FOR TODAY!" Correct? Then, yes, in that assumable
case,
I am a "cessationist." Thanks to PC for plainly clearing
that part up for me.

Now, since PC is going to Totally Ignore this comment...



...I suppose the following is for CS1 and BlackPowderDuelist,
and Any Other interested parties who will Not totally ignore it, eh?

I apologize, this is too long...to be continued...
Tell me, why do you need to speak in babble that no one can understand? Or heal that really isn’t healing? Or tell the future like a witch when God say’s if your foretelling does not come about? You are to be stoned to death. Or ask for God to send his holy spirit, when he is already in every child of his upon conversion? Like why fo need to do these things?
 

Lookupnotback

Active member
Sep 26, 2020
169
47
28
Africa was "saved" through the Word of Faith cult that has infiltrated charismatic churches decades ago.
You move under the false assumption that the promise of believing wealth into existence to people dying from poverty equates to genuine conversion. I don't see it that way.
These groups also drive many Out of church and away from faith due to false promises and the issues I mentioned in my post.

Also you fly the flag that if something is a little right that makes it good. I also don't see it that way. If you give directions to someone and you give a left instead of a right, that will mislead them.

So I'm not going to go with the notion that because they evoke false conversions, or even if genuine in some cases, that then bringing them into a guilt and fear ridden church where they perpetually chase God (not fires) and never catch Him as a good thing.
That only plants in shallow soil and the plants whither away.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...=VDSHOT&shth=OSH.lKK%2FQG%2FNEwXW%2BFWj7HCmCg
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
Africa was "saved" through the Word of Faith cult that has infiltrated charismatic churches decades ago.
You move under the false assumption that the promise of believing wealth into existence to people dying from poverty equates to genuine conversion. I don't see it that way.
These groups also drive many Out of church and away from faith due to false promises and the issues I mentioned in my post.

Also you fly the flag that if something is a little right that makes it good. I also don't see it that way. If you give directions to someone and you give a left instead of a right, that will mislead them.

So I'm not going to go with the notion that because they evoke false conversions, or even if genuine in some cases, that then bringing them into a guilt and fear ridden church where they perpetually chase God (not fires) and never catch Him as a good thing.
That only plants in shallow soil and the plants whither away.
Your analysis is a direct hit (y)

The word of faith in Africa has tarnished the name of Jesus Christ, as many of the richest pastors on earth are from Africa, luxury homes, cars, jets, bank accounts, as people starve in the name if their false Jesus $$$

Good post of truth!
 
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yeah im just saying miraculous works don’t prove anything our faith built by accepting his teachings does

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?

and in thy name have cast out devils?

and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:22-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one could do a miracle in Jesus name , and not be operating and speaking of God . What defines Gods children in this world is their actions and behavior towards others . We don’t need to have the gospel proven to us by a miracle we need to let the gospel into our belief meaning the things he taught because the things he taught are what this is made of

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19-20‬ ‭

Satans work in the world is to get us away from believing the gospel.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Satan works to blind us even as believers by distorting it and making the gospel something else making it not what Jesus preached a deception claiming to be truth that may even deceive the elect

“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

miracles will be one of the deceptions within the church in the world is my only point there , a miracle doesn’t mean it’s a man of God. There are spiritual powers we don’t understand in this world empowered by Satan who holds authority for a time and has created an alternate gospel that’s based on these kinds of doctrines rather than the gospel

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭

Within the worldly church there would be the one false shepherds leading people astray from the true gospel creating fable and confusion about the truth . Of Satan can’t get us to say I don’t believe , he is going to distort the truth we accept and cause us to reject the true gospel

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭


Importantly these prophecies were written almost 2000 years ago and we’ve long been corrupted by these false doctrines there’s truth and the true church yet it’s scattered across the world

there’s a world of dark deception and a lot of it calls itself Christianity but it’s distorted from the truth .

and then There’s the light of the world. The word of truth that gives us life Which Jesus preached and sent to all
People who would believe even though they may not see a miracle , but they believe by faith the message of Gods begotten who died and rose

My belief and I could be wrong who knows , just my own thought is that a miracle isn’t going to make an unbeliever , believe , but a believer may see a miracle later on by faith

I think the early church it was imperative to establish the gospel in the world when Christ left for heaven , there were so Many eye witnesses to these things that it’s lasted 2000 years when many have tried to eliminate and discredit it

faith I think has to come from the word of God the gospel hearing it and believing

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

I will when I get time read your link there I’m sure there are some differences my only point was that miracles aren’t where the proof lies , but in believers loving others in his ways and name because they believe what they haven’t seen
On the surface, what you are saying is correct. I had to laugh when I saw your very large font when showing a point. Made me remember a preachers notes left behind in the pulpit. It had notes in the margin showing where to lift an arm, point to the sky, thump the pulpit, and a paragraph heavily highlighted in red with the margin note: SHOUT FOR ALL YOU'RE WORTH. ARGUMENT VERY WEAK!"

But I suspect that there is a subtext in your post - something that you are implying but not saying right out. The question is: how are you applying your comments to Pentecostals who believe that Jesus shows His compassion by healing sick folk today, and releasing victims from demonic oppression in their lives? Because that is what you are doing in your sub-text aren't you?
 
Mar 17, 2021
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There ya go, exactly what I have witnessed in smaller gatherings within pentecostalism, Chaos & Confusion in self glorification (Sad)
I didn't know that worship of the Lord was meant to be a spectator sport, subject to being videoed like a football match.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,744
4,779
113
Tell me, why do you need to speak in babble that no one can understand? Or heal that really isn’t healing? Or tell the future like a witch when God say’s if your foretelling does not come about? You are to be stoned to death. Or ask for God to send his holy spirit, when he is already in every child of his upon conversion? Like why fo need to do these things?

lol 1618895464908.png I understand now , I notice there are a few folks who are simply intent on argument and have no interest in discussion and ill Make the adjustments and avoid those folks as they attempt to constantly bait others into the bitterness and juvenile attitudes and insults ect ect

So Thanks for making that clear so
I don’t try to discuss with you anymore
 
Mar 17, 2021
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Africa was "saved" through the Word of Faith cult that has infiltrated charismatic churches decades ago.
You move under the false assumption that the promise of believing wealth into existence to people dying from poverty equates to genuine conversion. I don't see it that way.
These groups also drive many Out of church and away from faith due to false promises and the issues I mentioned in my post.

Also you fly the flag that if something is a little right that makes it good. I also don't see it that way. If you give directions to someone and you give a left instead of a right, that will mislead them.

So I'm not going to go with the notion that because they evoke false conversions, or even if genuine in some cases, that then bringing them into a guilt and fear ridden church where they perpetually chase God (not fires) and never catch Him as a good thing.
That only plants in shallow soil and the plants whither away.
Oh? I have a friend who grew up in Kenya during the 1950s and attended Pentecostal churches with his parents. His description did not including anything like WOF or prosperity gospel. He said that those churches were much more godly and faithful to Christ than many western Pentecostal churches.

So, saying that "Africa was saved through the WOF movement" is a meaningless generalization that doesn't fit the real facts.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,744
4,779
113
On the surface, what you are saying is correct. I had to laugh when I saw your very large font when showing a point. Made me remember a preachers notes left behind in the pulpit. It had notes in the margin showing where to lift an arm, point to the sky, thump the pulpit, and a paragraph heavily highlighted in red with the margin note: SHOUT FOR ALL YOU'RE WORTH. ARGUMENT VERY WEAK!"

But I suspect that there is a subtext in your post - something that you are implying but not saying right out. The question is: how are you applying your comments to Pentecostals who believe that Jesus shows His compassion by healing sick folk today, and releasing victims from demonic oppression in their lives? Because that is what you are doing in your sub-text aren't you?
I notice when people don’t actually want to discuss something that doesn’t agree with thier point they will always look for anything other than what you said Tom pick at and attempt to send the docsuseion down a road of argument and conflict based on everything but scripture .

I’m not interested in your critique of how I wrote my post , was just attempting to participate in your discussion , I see that the way i write has caused a diversion off track
Of the subject so I will digress and
Let you two wrote your own thoughts your own way

I’m sure the punctuation and grammar will Be very nice , and the insults creative but it’s not a good example for
Anyone so I will Look for a different discussion and let you folks have your thread hopefully everyone writes the proper way so their point might actually be considered rather than , thier form picked at and the content ignored that’s probably most important 🙂
 
Mar 17, 2021
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You have the misconception that tongues have not ceased. The Holy Spirit was not given by Christ to bestow gifts to men. He was given to bring men to a saving knowledge of Christ.

Your theology is all about you and only a passing mention of Christ. You have it all backwards. I cannot stop you from going on in unbelief. It is the sign of the times.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You can't produce even one Scripture that supports the false notion that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were meant to cease. I could ask you to show me one reference where the word "temporary" is used in relation to the gifts of the Spirit, but I know that you won't be able to, and all you will do is to repeat the old worn out chestnuts to try and show they have ceased, which go like water off a duck's back for most Spirit-filled people who hear them.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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It does say that three will end. I guess you have better cut those verses out of your bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The Scripture does not say that the three will end before the completion of the church age. The notion that the 'perfect" relates to the canon of Scripture was dreamed up by an idiot who dreamed that he was a Bible commentator but woke up to find himself in Cloud Cuckoo Land. It is a lunatic fringe interpretation that no intelligent believer actually accepts.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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Very Encouraging, I believe I can present {outlier?} the Biblical
answer for my view in the continualist/cessationist debate...
------------------------------------------
Paul Christiansen said: "Context Is Vital

So, firstly, we must examine the Scriptures being quoted by teachers who are opposing the supernatural move of the Spirit to see the context, to whom and to what purpose they were written. Next we need to see how we can recognise {sp?} false prophets, teaching, signs and wonders manifest in these modern times, and whether they are consistent with the Scriptures that are being quoted by those opposing the current manifestation of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit.

But, he also states:

"There is no way that a person who has no experience in the spiritual gifts can know the difference between the genuine and misuse of spiritual gifts. Because of this, we can totally ignore any comments from Cessationists!"

Wait, I am defined as a cessationist because I oppose
The Supernatural Moving Of The Holy Spirit?
Then, Exactly WHAT should I call:

Baptism "BY" The Holy Spirit, The Washing Of
Regeneration
, Forgiveness of sins, The Circumcision of the
heart Without hands, Translation Into The Body Of CHRIST,
And, Receiving The Indwelling Holy Spirit, Which Is God's
Operation For His Eternal Salvation, According To His HOLY Word?


I certainly am NOT opposed to That "Supernatural Moving
Of The Holy Spirit."
So, therefore, I Cannot be defined as
a "cessationist"? Oh, what he {PC} Really Meant {under the
Assumption} "the gifts are active Today, Under GRACE,
is that:

"I oppose The Gifts of tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge,
and healings, FOR TODAY!" Correct? Then, yes, in that assumable
case,
I am a "cessationist." Thanks to PC for plainly clearing
that part up for me.

Now, since PC is going to Totally Ignore this comment...



...I suppose the following is for CS1 and BlackPowderDuelist,
and Any Other interested parties who will Not totally ignore it, eh?

I apologize, this is too long...to be continued...
You say that your opposition to tongues and prophecy for today is based on your study of Scripture? Where? Show me.

Are you saying that Jesus has changed from the 1st Century and that He no longer has the compassion to miraculously heal terminally ill people and others with incurable medical conditions? Do you actually know who Jesus is?

Where in the New Testament does it say that the Holy Spirit has stopped working with the body of Christ as He did with the early church? Where does Paul say to the Corinthians that their use of the gift of tongues and prophecy is only temporary, and when they finally get all his letters, and the Gospels and the letters of the other Apostles together to form a canon, that these gifts will suddenly cease?

They actually had what they believed was a canon of Scripture in the 2nd Century, but the church fathers of the time reported that tongues, prophecy and miracles of healing were still happening. Augustine in the 4th Century reported the same in the churches under his jurisdiction, and the canon of Scripture was firmly in place by that time.

Here is my response to the "perfect" being the canon of Scripture:

 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
11,744
4,779
113
You can't produce even one Scripture that supports the false notion that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were meant to cease. I could ask you to show me one reference where the word "temporary" is used in relation to the gifts of the Spirit, but I know that you won't be able to, and all you will do is to repeat the old worn out chestnuts to try and show they have ceased, which go like water off a duck's back for most Spirit-filled people who hear them.
brother , please hear what I’m saying about the correlation between faith and spiritual gifts

do you see how you understand tongues is still very valid ? That’s because in your faith Gods word about tongues is written solidly you have a good grasp of the matter that tongues is still areal and valuable gift within the church .

the reason others sometimes are convinced it has “Ceased” is because no one preaches it , so no one hears it , no one understands its place , no one hears much about any spiritual gift so
Therefore no one can possibly believe and receive what they haven’t heard about

that’s how faith works is the correlation a good example is when a group of believers hadn’t heard about the Holy Spirit , so they couldn’t have received it they had no faith written on their heart about it they hadn’t heard . So when they hear about the spirit , they are baptized into Christ and then receive the Holy Spirit because now their faith includes the understanding of receiving the Holy Spirit

do you see what I’m saying at all ? Instead of arguing out tongues show it’s purpose and function in scripture and show that not everyone receives it , others receive other gifts Bible teaching is a spiritual gift , having alot of faith is a spiritual gift , administration is a spiritual Gift the thing is if we’re arguing and insulting each other were
Missing the whole entire point of spiritual gifts and how they are designed by God to bring believers together ot
Makes up the church

to create or even participate in an argument about spiritual gifts isn’t the way for sure look at the purpose of them

“Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;

to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another faith by the same Spirit;

to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

To another the working of miracles;

to another prophecy;

to another discerning of spirits;

to another divers kinds of tongues;

to another the interpretation of tongues:

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭12:1, 4-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The only reason we have spiritual gifts is for the betterment of all and the unification of the one body rather than an argument if people hear about the gifts your so convinced of them they can begin to believe but if you are arguing and drawn into bitterness and insult it’s a lot harder to hear about the gifts

when I use bold it’s simply to make a point that’s the only reason it’s not yelling that’s only perception

faith has to be what we hear from the gospel is my point of we begin to share those things in scripture in the right spirit like the gift of tongues more people would be willing to accept what’s in scripture rather than bickering
 
Mar 17, 2021
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God's PERFECT Word Has Come

Let us now "back up a step" then about: "...we must examine
the Scriptures
..."? Now, that is a given, but, How About:

(1) IF God's Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable Word is NOT
"That Which Is PERFECT, And Has Come," then pray tell, what is it?

a) IF IT Has NOT Come, THEN "IT Does Not Qualify" for "ceasing​
the above four gifts," Correct? Yeah, ridiculous, I know, since:​
b) EVERYBODY Agrees IT Has Come! But, now IS IT Imperfect?​
IF SO, THEN "IT Does Not Qualify" for "ceasing the above​
four gifts," Correct?​
Conclude whatever you will, Precious friend(s)...​

And, IF that is True, Then I had Certainly Better NOT trust it, eh?
And, NO ONE Else "can trust it Either, AND NO ONE CAN BE SAVED"?
{In which case, "continualist/cessationist" debate, IS moot!}, Correct?

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing By The Word Of God!"

FurtherMore!:
I Certainly had better not "believe God's PERFECT Word Is PURE," eh?

"The Words of The LORD Are PURE Words: as silver tried in a
furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou Shalt keep them,
O LORD, Thou Shalt PRESERVE THEM from this generation for ever."
(
Psalms 12 : 6-7 KJB!)
+

What then happens IF I Do NOT believe God When HE Teaches:

"I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy
Name
for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for Thou Hast
MAGNIFIED Thy Word ABOVE All Thy Name." (
Psalms 138 : 2 KJB!)

Certainly, NOBODY believes God Would MAGNIFY something
IMPERFECT ABOVE All Of HIS HOLY NAME! Or would they?
{Glad I RAN from my "cradle religion" who claimed THEIR
church/tradition/magesterium was EQUAL to God's HOLY Word!

So, now "according to gifted men's experience, I should "take
THEIR word"...

...Instead of God's PERFECT Word? "That Which IS PERFECT"
for
my "faith And practice"?

Further Biblical Confirmation - God's Contexts, And:

(2) Baptisms, According To "The PERFECT Word, That Has Come,"
Which
we should be prayerfully And Carefully "studying" Today?:

Conclusions of Three (3) baptisms Summary
{Did not PC say: "Context Is Vital"?}:

In God's Context of HIS Prophetic program, under The Law,
to Israel, HE Requires water "baptism of repentance For The
Remission of sin," where, upon the obedience of the Jewish
recipient, CHRIST "Baptizes said recipient WITH The Holy Spirit,"
Pouring Out That Spirit for "powers, signs, and wonders," {healing
Everyone, raising from the dead, speaking in tongues, drinking
poison, handling snakes, etc.}

Q: Are these TWO "baptisms" for the Body of CHRIST, Today?
A: NO, and
"Context AGAIN, is Vital"?:

In God's Context of HIS Mystery Program, Under God's PURE GRACE,
For The Body Of CHRIST, There Is Only ONE Baptism! It Is

----------========= "BY" The Holy Spirit,

Identifying, or Spiritually Immersing/Placing the "New-Born
believer" INTO The ONE Body {Spiritual Organism}, Seated In
Heaven!


The FULL "study" is available here: Today's ONE Bible Baptism

Again, If any Precious friend agrees "Context Is Vital" then,
Please study prayerfully And Carefully God's Contexts Of TWO
Different Programs, here: TWO Gospels, and here: Distinctions

My conclusion has been for many years that Mixing These Up
has been the Main Source of untold Disastrous Confusion in
The Severely Divided Body Of CHRIST, Very weak, and POWERless!

And, Please Be Very RICHLY Blessed!
------------------------------------------------
Further Biblical Confirmation:
(3) healings/Israel's National priesthood? In God's PERFECT Word?
See Sections #4, #9, And #10 here: 12 baptisms

Further Biblical Confirmation:
(4) healings in Paul's Early GRACE ministry, but why not later?
In God's PERFECT Word?
a) Yes, Paul had the "signs of an apostle," especially​
raising the dead! (Acts 20 : 9-10 KJB!), And,​
(b) So, WHY this, after Israel "fell," And Paul declared:​
"Be it known therefore unto you, that The Salvation of
God Is Sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it."​
(Acts 28 : 28 KJB!)​
(c) WHY Does Paul NO LONGER "have The "gift of​
The Holy Spirit, of healing" everyone?​
(d) WHY Does "Paul himself have an infirmity,"
asking God THREE times for Healing? And,
hearing God's GRACIOUS/Powerful Answer?:

Further Biblical Confirmation!
(5) Does God Have a New Revelation About HIS
"Power"
{#3 in link below...} for us Gentiles, who
HE Exhorts To: "walk By FAITH, NOT by sight {power signs}"
(2 Corinthians 5 : 7 KJB!)?

I believe so, According To The Scriptural "infirmities"
study
here: A GRACE Word Before Great GRACE Departure!

Precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Blessed!!
When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13, he had no conception of a perfect canon of Scripture. He taught from Moses and the Prophets, so most of your description of perfect Scripture is of Moses, the Prophets and Psalms. The New Testament didn't exist yet. The only perfection that Paul knew and was talking about is when this imperfect church will pass into history and perfect fellowship with Christ in glory will make the gifts redundant.

All your Scriptural quotes have nothing to do with the Spiritual gifts. All you are doing is to try and make the Bible say what you want it to say concerning them. That's called perverting God's Word.
 
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I notice when people don’t actually want to discuss something that doesn’t agree with thier point they will always look for anything other than what you said Tom pick at and attempt to send the docsuseion down a road of argument and conflict based on everything but scripture .

I’m not interested in your critique of how I wrote my post , was just attempting to participate in your discussion , I see that the way i write has caused a diversion off track
Of the subject so I will digress and
Let you two wrote your own thoughts your own way

I’m sure the punctuation and grammar will Be very nice , and the insults creative but it’s not a good example for
Anyone so I will Look for a different discussion and let you folks have your thread hopefully everyone writes the proper way so their point might actually be considered rather than , thier form picked at and the content ignored that’s probably most important 🙂
You large font comments show that your arguments are baseless and have no Scriptural support. You know that very well. The strength of an argument is when it is firmly based in direct Scripture that supports it. It already has been proved that 1 Corinthians 13:8-9 is not a support for the cessation of tongues and prophecy in our time, in act, it has nothing to do with the 1 Corinthians 12 gift of tongues, nor has it anything to do with the tongues Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 14. So, using the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8-9 by some 19th Century crackpot is no proof at all. Any intelligent believer who knows the Scripture knows that.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,081
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Sigh, it is hard to breath coming in the room behind you for all the straw dust you stir up into the air....all is see here is your ego and not humbly interpreting the word or reading all of it to understand the nature of your Creator....i mean honestly, your going to try and imply love is not part of the whole plan?
You do not know me, and you insult my character and assume I have bad motives. Again, that speaks more to your own character than it does to mine.

If someone is walking holy with the Lord, he is careful not to make wild, unsubstantiated accusations against other lest he commit the sin of slander. Your posts do not come off as particularly humble.

And no, I did not say or imply that 'love is not a part of the whole plan'? Where did you get that?

Maybe you avoid the issue and accuse because you do not have anything substantial to say on the subject. If not, study more. Not just assume your favorite teacher has it all figured out, but study and know the word of God yourself.

That is an extremely foolish example to try and theorize into a reality in a lame attempt to discredit one who teaches the word’s actual meaning vs your emotional trip’n release for mankind, like really?
Where have I promoted an emotional "trip'n release"? I don't know what that is. It sounds like something a Hippie might say. I don't speak Hippie.

No one in their tight mind would ever imply God is not love,
Quote me where you think I said that. You are not making much sense.

Perfect love actually.....and you chase after doctrines of demons to build up your ego. You need to repent as you are heading to hell’s flames twisting God’s words in such ways.
I have posted about very simple and straightforward truths about scripture in this thread. If you do not think so, deal with it specifically instead of accusing me and judging me based on your own opinions. I do not see any real substance in your posts, just accusations and false assertions. If you say I wrote that God is not love, that is just a false accusation. I have communicated plainly in the thread. You have thrown up the storm of dust--accusations without supporting what you have written by the word of God.

If you find fault with any interpretation of scripture I have posted, deal with it in detail and post why you think this is the case. Break from your typical form so far, and post something wise rather than just accusations.
 
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brother , please hear what I’m saying about the correlation between faith and spiritual gifts

do you see how you understand tongues is still very valid ? That’s because in your faith Gods word about tongues is written solidly you have a good grasp of the matter that tongues is still areal and valuable gift within the church .

the reason others sometimes are convinced it has “Ceased” is because no one preaches it , so no one hears it , no one understands its place , no one hears much about any spiritual gift so
Therefore no one can possibly believe and receive what they haven’t heard about

that’s how faith works is the correlation a good example is when a group of believers hadn’t heard about the Holy Spirit , so they couldn’t have received it they had no faith written on their heart about it they hadn’t heard . So when they hear about the spirit , they are baptized into Christ and then receive the Holy Spirit because now their faith includes the understanding of receiving the Holy Spirit

do you see what I’m saying at all ? Instead of arguing out tongues show it’s purpose and function in scripture and show that not everyone receives it , others receive other gifts Bible teaching is a spiritual gift , having alot of faith is a spiritual gift , administration is a spiritual Gift the thing is if we’re arguing and insulting each other were
Missing the whole entire point of spiritual gifts and how they are designed by God to bring believers together ot
Makes up the church

to create or even participate in an argument about spiritual gifts isn’t the way for sure look at the purpose of them

“Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;

to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another faith by the same Spirit;

to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

To another the working of miracles;

to another prophecy;

to another discerning of spirits;

to another divers kinds of tongues;

to another the interpretation of tongues:

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭12:1, 4-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The only reason we have spiritual gifts is for the betterment of all and the unification of the one body rather than an argument if people hear about the gifts your so convinced of them they can begin to believe but if you are arguing and drawn into bitterness and insult it’s a lot harder to hear about the gifts

when I use bold it’s simply to make a point that’s the only reason it’s not yelling that’s only perception

faith has to be what we hear from the gospel is my point of we begin to share those things in scripture in the right spirit like the gift of tongues more people would be willing to accept what’s in scripture rather than bickering
Now I'm confused. In this post you are implying that you are supporting the use of Spiritual gifts in today's churches, whereas before you implied that they had ceased. Maybe your large fonts hit me too hard and gave me concussion! :)
 
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You do not know me, and you insult my character and assume I have bad motives. Again, that speaks more to your own character than it does to mine.

If someone is walking holy with the Lord, he is careful not to make wild, unsubstantiated accusations against other lest he commit the sin of slander. Your posts do not come off as particularly humble.

And no, I did not say or imply that 'love is not a part of the whole plan'? Where did you get that?

Maybe you avoid the issue and accuse because you do not have anything substantial to say on the subject. If not, study more. Not just assume your favorite teacher has it all figured out, but study and know the word of God yourself.



Where have I promoted an emotional "trip'n release"? I don't know what that is. It sounds like something a Hippie might say. I don't speak Hippie.



Quote me where you think I said that. You are not making much sense.



I have posted about very simple and straightforward truths about scripture in this thread. If you do not think so, deal with it specifically instead of accusing me and judging me based on your own opinions. I do not see any real substance in your posts, just accusations and false assertions. If you say I wrote that God is not love, that is just a false accusation. I have communicated plainly in the thread. You have thrown up the storm of dust--accusations without supporting what you have written by the word of God.

If you find fault with any interpretation of scripture I have posted, deal with it in detail and post why you think this is the case. Break from your typical form so far, and post something wise rather than just accusations.
Just to encourage you. :)
You don't have to defend yourself or return fire to someone who is firing blanks!
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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it doesn’t say he is only going to pull fire from heaven it says many false prophets and Christs will do any powerful
And deceiving signs , I’m not sure why opening a blind mans eyes couldn’t possibly be one

“For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:22‬ ‭

is say also the purpose of making the statement. Pull fire from heaven is definitely Satans imitation of Gods power also that’s what Elijah the prophet did during his ministry.



I’m not sure where the blind man part comes in but my point is that a miracle , a sign or wonder doesn’t prove anything. Regardless of what type of wonders signs or miracles Satan does to deceive the world

people waiting for the proof of a miracle worker might be deceived along with the others as they see his miracles , including even fire from the sky

“And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;

saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:13-15‬ ‭

I’m not sure how limited his power is to be could be your right maybe he couldn’t open the blind mans eyes I guess that’s more of an opinion that can differ because there’s no scripture

learn this ?

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:15-

yes thier fruits indeed I agree I don’t think a fruit is a miracle working but the fruits of the gospel the fruits of righteousness is how we know men kind of my point we know someone’s of God because of how they act and treat others not because they worked a wonderful sign

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

By their fruits not thier moraculois works done in his name

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even workers of iniquity had done many wonderful works in his name , driven out devils in his name , prophesied in his name yet , he never knew them that worked iniquity .

Satan has power on earth I don’t pretend to know his limits so you could be right but I agree with you men are known by the fruit the gospel produces in our life
You don't know where you coming from man

You can't tell the difference between miracles of grace and mercy and power signs. You quoted it yourself "do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? can an evil tree bear good fruit?

We could wish to see more peace, joy, love, long suffering etc from Evangelicalism, we do see a lot of provoking and envying. When Jesus spoke about fruit good or evil He was speaking in direct relationship to the miracles He was doing which the Evangelicals [oh pardon] Pharisees said were done by beezlebub.

I love Evangelicals we's all brethren ... most these days love me.

Correction, many workers of iniquity will SAY "have we not done many wonderful works" if they had done those things Jesus could not have blamed them for that's what we are told to do. The trick is to see the difference between "many" and "you" in "I never knew you"

Many is plural You is singular.

Many will no doubt come and say "we Pentecostals ... we Methodists, .... we Baptists ... did not we Baptists do many mighty works" thinking that denomination will save them. They enrolled with the church but they did not enrol with Jesus.

Doing miracles is not the question, the question is did they receive the Holy Spirit as we see they received Him in the bible. The experience in the bible is uniform and recognizable, whether the apostles at Pentecost or Cornelius or Corinth or Ephesus.

But the experience in the modern church is not uniform, folks say they have received Him but we see no evidence of it. .... until happily revival comes along. People seem to say "like yeh I got saved ho hum ... my wife is a good cook " like nothing outstanding has happened to them.