The Way of the Sword in the Old Testament; Has it Ended?

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#41
Compare these two verses.

Deuteronomy 4:40.
English Standard Version
Therefore you shall keep his statutes and his commandments, which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.”

Exodus 12:14
English Standard Version
“This day [Passover] shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.

The Passover is to be kept as a statute forever. However, Christians do not keep Passover. Or, do they? Actually, they do. Believing on Jesus Christ is how the statute of Passover is kept forever. And this faith comes from the Spirit that dwells in our hearts. Passover is kept spiritually, in our hearts.

Likewise the land is also no longer literal. The land is the church. You possess the land (you belong to the church) if you possess the Spirit and believe in your heart.
You forget the demands of Gentiles we're different, starting in Acts 15. Passover for Messianic Jews is still a day of memory for what God had done in the past and the ultimate Passover as Jesus Christ blood sacrifice.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#42
You forget the demands of Gentiles we're different, starting in Acts 15. Passover for Messianic Jews is still a day of memory for what God had done in the past and the ultimate Passover as Jesus Christ blood sacrifice.
Judaism
Hanukkah: As the story goes, a small quantity of oil to light the Temple's menorah miraculously lasted eight days. Hanukkah signifies that the jewish people were able to reach purity without the Messiah

Messianic
Jesus Christ: Rose from the dead on the day after the sabbath (seventh day) and broke through to the eighth day. We need the Messiah to reach purity.

Messianic Jews celebrate two ways to get to the eighth day - to reach purity. This is error. Hanukkah is man-made, it is not from God.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#43
Judaism
Hanukkah: As the story goes, a small quantity of oil to light the Temple's menorah miraculously lasted eight days. Hanukkah signifies that the jewish people were able to reach purity without the Messiah

Messianic
Jesus Christ: Rose from the dead on the day after the sabbath (seventh day) and broke through to the eighth day. We need the Messiah to reach purity.

Messianic Jews celebrate two ways to get to the eighth day - to reach purity. This is error. Hanukkah is man-made, it is not from God.
Now how is this connected to my quote?
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#44
"[Jesus:] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Mat 10:34 KJV
This applies to , for example, say you were raised in a muslim home and all your family were muslims. And you one day came into the truth and followed Jesus. You enemies now become you father and mother and sister and brother... They will be angry with you or disown you and you will not be at peace with then the people you were closet to on this earth. They may even report you to the authorities if it is an oppressive government or they may ostracize you or even want to kill you for renouncing your faith and being a disgrace.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#48
Making a distinction from the secular jews or non-messianic jews that you were referring to.
So you are suggesting that the messianic jews are a remnant. Are you saying they have to abide in the old testament feasts and ceremonies while us gentiles do not?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#49
So you are suggesting that the messianic jews are a remnant. Are you saying they have to abide in the old testament feasts and ceremonies while us gentiles do not?
Yes and no. They are a remnant but the law was fulfilled. These traditions set them apart as God's chosen people who He (God) is not through with yet.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#51
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." - Revelation 19:21
I wouldn't want to be part of that remnant.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#53
God's chosen people who He (God) is not through with yet.
Christians are God's chosen people...

Ephesians
4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Galatians
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
1,134
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#54
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." - Revelation 19:21

The sword from the mouth in Rev 19 also slays people. Revelation is a vision though, and could definitely be interpreted as a metaphor for spiritual power and victory based on other passages:

"(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." - Luke 2:35

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

On the other hand, we do see passages that speak of the sword in a seemingly physical way:

"For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." - Romans 13:4

It could be meant as a combination of physical and spiritual, but certainly the "way of the sword" could be interpreted to be completely spiritual.
This is a great point.

Those that look too literally at the NT (thus revert back to the OT) will see the promise land as being literal Israel.
They will see a need for a literal stone temple in Jerusalem.
And they will be more favorable toward intertwining church and state, or at least church and politics.
They will more likely view their land as the USA instead of viewing their land as the church.

Instead of the focus remaining on preaching the gospel; the love and grace of Christ and the opportunity for repentance for the un-believers, the focus will shift more and more to judging the un-believers and advocating for cultural and legal changes requiring un-believers to follow the moral law.

But what good is it for an un-believer to follow the moral law? For no one is justified by the law. Getting an un-believer to follow the moral law is more beneficial to the believer. Therefore, the mixing of politics and church is a more selfish endeavor. It is a more fleshly endeavor. For we see the un-believer as the enemy. Thus the sword is literal.

To resist judging un-believers and their lawless ways and to instead share the gospel message of grace and hope and love and the opportunity for repentance and peace with God is a more selfless endeavor. This is a more spiritual endeavor. For here we see that the un-believer is not the real enemy. The demonic power they are enslaved to is the real enemy. Thus the sword is spiritual.

Can we over spiritualize the NT? Yes. We can to the point where we forget about the final literal judgement.

Can we over literalize the NT? Of Course. We can be so zealous for the final literal judgement that we start bringing the judgement here and now.

For those who view their land as spiritual (the church) and their enemy as spiritual (demonic), will want to devote more of their time wielding a spiritual sword.

For those who view their land as literal (USA) and their enemy as literal (flesh), will want to devote more of their time wielding a literal sword.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#55
Israel still has prophecies to be fulfilled as explained in

https://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html
Yes, but my point is this; to be found in a state of rejecting the blood Jesus that He shed for all 2000 years ago will be a bad, bad thing... no matter what your ethnic background is. Many Judaizers will be save in the Tribulation, but they will have to accept the same blood of Jesus that the rest of us have. Better to be ready before the Rapture than have to enter the Trib with the Judaizers.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
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#56
Christians are God's chosen people...

Ephesians
4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Galatians
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gentiles being grafted in but what I am referring to is that God will graft in Israel once again.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#57
Gentiles being grafted in but what I am referring to is that God will graft in Israel once again.
What about the Jews of the last two thousand years who did not believe and died? will they be grafted in too?

God shows no partiality. Why would God show partiality to one future generation of Jews and not to the 100 generations that came before?

Look, let us agree to disagree.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
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#58
Yes, but my point is this; to be found in a state of rejecting the blood Jesus that He shed for all 2000 years ago will be a bad, bad thing... no matter what your ethnic background is. Many Judaizers will be save in the Tribulation, but they will have to accept the same blood of Jesus that the rest of us have. Better to be ready before the Rapture than have to enter the Trib with the Judaizers.
And God has miraculously protected this remnant from countless exiles, genocides, wars, and they still hold land today including keeping their Jewish heritage.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
4,452
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#59
What about the Jews of the last two thousand years who did not believe and died? will they be grafted in too?

God shows no partiality. Why would God show partiality to one future generation of Jews and not to the 100 generations that came before?

Look, let us agree to disagree.
Because the future generation will accept the Messiah in great numbers.

Okay
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,817
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#60
This applies to , for example, say you were raised in a muslim home and all your family were muslims. And you one day came into the truth and followed Jesus. You enemies now become you father and mother and sister and brother... They will be angry with you or disown you and you will not be at peace with then the people you were closet to on this earth. They may even report you to the authorities if it is an oppressive government or they may ostracize you or even want to kill you for renouncing your faith and being a disgrace.
You don't have to come from an extreme background like Islam to have haters in a secular world.

Though Islam itself fits your thread title perfectly ;)