50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

You make a good point, but you are mistaken with the 4 horsemen. NOT the four horsemen for they started at the early church. The first half of the 70th week will be devastation caused by the first 6 trumpet judgments, then the last 7 vial judgments. There will not be much left.

The rapture may well take half the world's population when we consider all the children caught up with the saints.
Then the earthquakes will certainly kill some.
Then the 6th trumpet will take 1/3 more.
Then the days of GT will see the murder of perhaps millions of those who refuse the mark.
Then the vials will certainly take more.

How could ANYONE be thinking and saying "peace and safety" (the time of the rapture) after all that?

Hopefully not with animal sacrifices intact?

I know some here believe in that false teaching. What an INSULT to the blood of Christ!

Absolutely including animal sacrifices. The text is infallibly clear on the matter.

This is where that greatly touted "Hermeneutic" ends.

Very new, very wrong, very sad. :/

FreeGrace2 said:
I don't try to connect dots. I just read the words of Scripture. Very simple and clear.

My point is that "connecting dots" leads to some guessing and speculation. iow, interpretation. That's why I prefer saying with plain verses that communicate without the need for "trying" to figure out what the author meant.

Of course there are clear verses where the dots absolutely are easy to connect.

If you have something to offer to prove your point.....say on.

You can say that, but also remember that there ARE clear amill verses.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

What you see in these verses, especially 2 Peter 3:10ff is that he says we are waiting for a new heaven and a new earth, and that the day of the Lord is coming when the heavens will be dissolved and all that are in the earth shall be burned up. CLEARLY, this doesnt sound like a millennium.

So its not that amilllennialists are "spiritualizing" Rev 20 for the sake of spiritualizing it, they just look at the rest of the new testament and see oh hey, well that doesnt work, has to mean something else then.

As we know, book of revelation is a VERY symbolic book.

1) it says concerning noah "before the flood"
2) lot is also a prejudgment dynamic
3) neither lot or noah get removed post judgement.

Your model is opposite the bible

1 Cor 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

No general resurrection here......only the rapture and nothing more.

Show me where noah and lot are taken away post judgement.

Show me where the gathering of live saints in rev 14 FOLLOWS YOUR THEORY of the dead in christ RAISED post trib.

Show me.
I will wait.
Should be easy
NO SMARTY PANTS DEFLECTION

Get a bible and post the remedy to your dilemma

FreeGrace2 said:
Said the guy with zero basis for his theories.

I don't even bother with Noah or Lot. I am fully capable of reading ALL the rapture verses and noting that there are NONE that say that raptured believers go to heaven.


I have. And I will again. Will YOU pay attention this time?

2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the "coming of the Lord" is AFTER "the rebellion" and "man of lawlessness is revealed". And the gathering is WHEN the "coming of the Lord" happens.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


Get your spectacles on and read with comprehension.

Now, where is the verse that makes very clear that raptured believers going to heaven?

How about YOU getting a Bible and post the remedy to YOUR dilemma.

Just as the pre-tribbers deny Gods words regarding truth, you do the same regarding the false teaching of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth,

Many falsely claiming Jesus will come and rule on earth amongst mortal humans, this being (Deception)

When quoting Please post the Book, Chapter, Verse(s), Translation used, common courtesy, thanks

From what I posted, I actually quoted the passage. So what are you asking for? I gave you book chapter and verses. The translation was NIV.

Now, what's your point?

Hebrews chapters 8 and 9 go through it. How the levite priesthood is done and how the priesthood of Melchizedek is here TO STAY

He says this in a passage about what happens AFTER the tribulation. 'For then shall be great tribulation...after the tribulation of those days...then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven.. He shall gather together the elect...For as the days of Noah were, so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

The book of Hebrews is an exhortation for Jews to come all the way to Christ and abandon the law of Moses as the means to salvation. And yes the Mosaic and Levitical covenants are absolutely obsolete. However you are making the assumption that this has a bearing on the necessity of sacrifices during the millennial kingdom. It doesn't. In fact a summary of Gods order of worship during the millennial reign is set forth in Ezekiel and elsewhere. In explicit detail. In stupefying volume.

Deny if you wish but it's right there in black and white. No doubt there will be sacrifices during the millennial reign. However they have absolutely nothing to do with sacrifice for the satisfaction of sin. These sacrifices are a remembrance of the Atonement and a means of worship.

After reading Hebrews 10:1-10 (KJV) you still think God wants to bring animal sacrifices back? Please quote the chapter and verse from Ezekiel.

Heb. 10:1-10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Thanks for proving my point. These doubting and recalcitrant Jews were having trouble abandoning the law of Moses as a means of atonement. Probably primarily because of social pressures.

Those passages as well as every other point of argument made is saying the same thing over and over again: Christ Himself is the final sacrifice for sin, and He is the new and better high priest. Therefore they must abandon the Law of Moses and the old Levitical priesthood, as it is obsolete and useless. Furthermore a willful failure to abandon the old religious economy will leave the practitioner bereft of salvation.

None of this is any bearing on the Millennial order of worship or prescribed sacrifices. That's the way it's going to be whether you believe it or not or whether you like it or not. As is so common you are conflating scripture and making unwarranted spurious assumptions, which are nothing more than a figment of your imagination.

You believe and falsely teach Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is a future temple that will be built in a fairy tale Millennial Kingdom on this earth, with renewed animal sacrifice directed by God, with this being (Blasphemy) to the finished work on Calvary

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is nothing more than the Zerubbabel 2nd Temple, built in 536BC and destroyed by the Roman's in 70AD

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 represents Ezekiel receiving the vision of the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple in the 25th year of the Babylonian Captivity, he was instructed in verse 4 below to show the vision to the house of Israel in the Captivity

Ezekiel 40:1-4KJV
1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me thither.
2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.
4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

The Zerubbabel 2nd Temple,and Gods Instruction For Blood Sacrifice For Consecration And The (Sin Offering)

Ezekiel 43:18-21KJV
18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.