By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

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brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
5,700
501
113
#1
Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)


  1. hated, odious, hateful
  2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
    1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,261
5,618
113
#4
Everyone. The whole world is marked for wrath unless we are reconciled to God.
Our human nature is in rebellion against God.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
5,700
501
113
#5
The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods Wrath because Christ has already been made sin for them 2 Cor 5:21, and God doesnt impute sin to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So consequently wheres there no sin imputed theres no wrath ! The wrath of God is upon imputed sin Rom 1:18


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

But this ungodliness and unrighteousness of sin isnt imputed to the Elect 2 Cor 5:19

Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

But none of these things listed in Vs 5 are imputed to the elect so no wrath ! 2 Cor 5:19

Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

But none of these things in Vs 5 are imputed to the chosen, so no wrath

The reason for this blessedness is because all those sins when it comes to Gods chosen, have already came under the wrath of God as they were charged to Christ 2 Cor 5:21. And that was before the chosen ones were born !
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
#6
Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

  1. hated, odious, hateful
  2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
    1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !
We had a nature of sin and death when we were born, because we were born with an "Adam" spirit separated from God. But when we were born again, we got a NEW spirit which is a NEW nature! Now our nature is to love and serve God. Sadly, we still live in a flesh and blood body that remembers sin.

In other words, we are no longer "sinners, saved by Grace." We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
5,700
501
113
#7
We had a nature of sin and death when we were born, because we were born with an "Adam" spirit separated from God. But when we were born again, we got a NEW spirit which is a NEW nature! Now our nature is to love and serve God. Sadly, we still live in a flesh and blood body that remembers sin.

In other words, we are no longer "sinners, saved by Grace." We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus!
I dont think you understanding me !
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
#8
I dont think you understanding me !
Perhaps you don't understand that God is not angry with His children - that have have God's own DNA in their spirit man or woman.

If I am still not understanding, explain it more fully.
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,732
1,630
113
#9
OP is contradictory …

At one point we find this statement:

He's meaning believers as himself


and later on, this statement:

brightfame52 said:
So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !


OP's dogma does not align with Scripture. Yes, Paul was "under Gods Wrath" as shown in Eph 2:3 and Paul freely admitted he was "under Gods Wrath".

OP changes Scripture to suit a preconceived notion.

Whenever and wherever OP's dogma does not align with Scripture, OP needs to let go of the dogma and cleave to the truth of Scripture.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
#10
OP is contradictory …

At one point we find this statement:



and later on, this statement:



OP's dogma does not align with Scripture. Yes, Paul was "under Gods Wrath" as shown in Eph 2:3 and Paul freely admitted he was "under Gods Wrath".

OP changes Scripture to suit a preconceived notion.

Whenever and wherever OP's dogma does not align with Scripture, OP needs to let go of the dogma and cleave to the truth of Scripture.
My friend, "was" is history. After Paul was born again he was certainly NOT under God's wrath. Read closer next time.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
#11
The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods Wrath because Christ has already been made sin for them...
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

"No whoremonger, etc. has any inheritance in the kingdom of God."

"The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods (sic) Wrath"

But "that is what some of you were."

One of those three statements is not like the others; one is not Scripture; the other two are. One is not true; the other two are.

I'll leave it to you to figure out which is the odd one out. ;)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,249
25,719
113
#12
My friend, "was" is history. After Paul was born again he was certainly NOT under God's wrath. Read closer next time.
OP is saying Paul and believers were NEVER under God's wrath.

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not...
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,732
1,630
113
#13
After Paul was born again he was certainly NOT under God's wrath.
Yes, in agreement. Do you agree that before Paul was born again, he was by nature a child of wrath?


Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#14
Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

  1. hated, odious, hateful
  2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
    1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !
Is this post advocating eternal justification? If so, I have to disagree with that. Otherwise, good presentation of total inability of lost man and the effectual calling of God.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#15
Yes, in agreement. Do you agree that before Paul was born again, he was by nature a child of wrath?


Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Yup. Eternal justification is error.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
5,700
501
113
#16
Perhaps you don't understand that God is not angry with His children - that have have God's own DNA in their spirit man or woman.

If I am still not understanding, explain it more fully.
I dont know what you talking about friend.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
5,700
501
113
#17
OP is contradictory …

At one point we find this statement:



and later on, this statement:



OP's dogma does not align with Scripture. Yes, Paul was "under Gods Wrath" as shown in Eph 2:3 and Paul freely admitted he was "under Gods Wrath".

OP changes Scripture to suit a preconceived notion.

Whenever and wherever OP's dogma does not align with Scripture, OP needs to let go of the dogma and cleave to the truth of Scripture.
You just confused, everything is laid out succinctly.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
5,700
501
113
#18
1 Cor. 6:9-11 Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

"No whoremonger, etc. has any inheritance in the kingdom of God."

"The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods (sic) Wrath"

But "that is what some of you were."

One of those three statements is not like the others; one is not Scripture; the other two are. One is not true; the other two are.

I'll leave it to you to figure out which is the odd one out. ;)
1 Cor 6:9-11 I have no problem with, its describing sinners, which all are by nature, one way or other.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
5,700
501
113
#20
Is this post advocating eternal justification? If so, I have to disagree with that. Otherwise, good presentation of total inability of lost man and the effectual calling of God.
Sounds like you disagree with Justification at the Cross !