The Father Of Roman Catholicism, Emperor Constatine The Great

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CS1

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May 23, 2012
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The Catholic Church preceded your Church. You have to be able to trace the leadership of your Church back to the apostles in order to establish the basis that it is the church Christ founded. Christ didn’t found his church in the 16th century or later.
"we are the first Church "
 

GodMyFortress

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May 9, 2021
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Obviously he pray to mary

O Mary... we entrust our health to you

It is clear he pray to Mary
He (the Pope) believes the prayers of holy Christians are powerful in their effect (according to James). That’s what he’s talking about because he believes God will hear her prayers.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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He (the Pope) believes the prayers of holy Christians are powerful in their effect (according to James). That’s what he’s talking about because he believes God will hear her prayers.
live ones on earth today yes. not dead ones who are in heaven
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Ok, believe what you want. Dogma has only to do with faith and morals. Those statements are pastoral commentary.
:alien:

Did you read the title of that article?
It start with

Dogmatic constitution of the church

So it is dogma, or you not agree with your holy father

This dogma/doctrine promulgated or promote by your holy father, so your holy father must believe it is dogma.

Quote

SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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The Catholic Church preceded your Church. You have to be able to trace the leadership of your Church back to the apostles in order to establish the basis that it is the church Christ founded. Christ didn’t found his church in the 16th century or later.
I dont believe in the Apostolic succession as presented by the RCC

Antioch Syria was the church headquarters

The RCC persecuted the "True Church" those who wouldnt baptize their children in the RCC to mention one

The inquisition, and methods of torture used by the RCC, at the directions of the Popes Bulls, the iron virgin, thumb screws, the rack, Evil!

Evil History, In The Succession Of Darkness!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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He (the Pope) believes the prayers of holy Christians are powerful in their effect (according to James). That’s what he’s talking about because he believes God will hear her prayers.
Pope pray to

Not ask Mary to pray

Ask Mary to pray

Dear Mary pray for me

Pray to

Mary, I entrust my health to you

You seem have the problem to tell the different between pray to and ask one pray
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
432
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Now to be clear, I am saying metaphorically/symbolically in context to the "last supper" not everything in the word of God is figurative, literal, symbolic, Allegory, or prophetic. The context is established and authorial intent from all scripture both Old and New Testament. it is not either-or it is all contextually.


it is too, dishonest to say " can you name any early Christian to ever challenge this “heresy” the Catholic Church promotes? ".

The early church had many issues as Paul addressed them as there was with the Lord Supper in 1cor chapter 11.

Many issues were addressed after the Apostles of Christ died for example the deity of Christ. The Church needs time and the word of God to receive correction, clarity to what is godly. Gnosticism rose it's ugly head again.

Now to say :

"can you name any early Christian to ever challenge this “heresy” the Catholic Church promotes? ".

Well, can you name when THE EARLY CHURCH started teaching the doctrine Transubstantiuon? NO. MANY ERRORS IN THE CHURCH TOOK TIME TO ADDRESS.

The word “eucharist” means “thanksgiving” and was an early Christian way of referring to the celebration of the Lord’s Table.

Believers in the early centuries of church history regularly celebrated the Lord’s Table as a way to commemorate the death of Christ. The Lord Himself commanded this observance on the night before His death. As the apostle Paul recorded in 1 Corinthians 11:23–26:

the church fathers who you hold their writing as authoritative said :

Tertullian clarified his understanding of the Lord’s Table by noting that the bread and the cup were symbols of Christ’s body and blood. In that same vein, we find that many of the church fathers similarly clarified their understanding of the eucharist by describing it in symbolic and spiritual terms.


Justin Martyr (110–165) spoke of “the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood"(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).

Origen similarly noted, “We have a symbol of gratitude to God in the bread which we call the Eucharist” (Against Celsus, 8.57).

Athanasius (296–373) similarly contended that the elements of the Eucharist are to be understood spiritually, not physically: “[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Festal Letter, 4.19)

it would appear those of the early church fathers agreed with the word of God and Paul. Not the RCC of today

Words matter. Symbols, remembrance and commemorative do not transfer to become the blood and body of Jesus Literally.

You are in error. Take your church father's word for it if you won't take Pauls.
You have taken those quotes out of context. I’ve provided some quotes from the same authors you quoted. I’m posting a part two as well. Your belief simply isn’t in historical Christianity.

ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible [Letter to the Romans 7 (c. A.D. 110)]. Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ, which have come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh that suffered for our sins and that the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes [Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6–7 (c. A.D. 110)].

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing that is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food that has been made into the Eucharist by the eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus [First Apology 66 (c. A.D. 151)]. ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood? [Against Heresies 4:33:2 (c. A.D. 189)]. He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies. When the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh that is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him? [ibid., 5:2:2–3].

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA “Eat my flesh,” [Jesus] says, “and drink my blood.” The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children [Instructor of Children 1:6 (c. A.D. 197)].

TERTULLIAN OF CARTHAGE [T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe while it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh that actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], that the soul may be cleansed. . . . The flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul may fatten on its God [Resurrection of the Flesh 8 (c. A.D. 210)].

ST. HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME “And she has furnished her table”: That denotes the promised knowledge of the Holy Trinity; it also refers to his honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper” [fragment from On Proverbs (c. A.D. 217)].

ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA
Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way. . . . Now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: “My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink” [Jn 6:56] [Homilies on Numbers 7:2 (c. A.D. 249)].

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, “Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and despised, [lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord [The Lapsed (Treatise 3) 15–16 (A.D. 251)].



ST. APHRAHAT THE PERSIAN SAGE
After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink [Demonstrations 12:6 (c. A.D. 340)].
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
432
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Now to be clear, I am saying metaphorically/symbolically in context to the "last supper" not everything in the word of God is figurative, literal, symbolic, Allegory, or prophetic. The context is established and authorial intent from all scripture both Old and New Testament. it is not either-or it is all contextually.


it is too, dishonest to say " can you name any early Christian to ever challenge this “heresy” the Catholic Church promotes? ".

The early church had many issues as Paul addressed them as there was with the Lord Supper in 1cor chapter 11.

Many issues were addressed after the Apostles of Christ died for example the deity of Christ. The Church needs time and the word of God to receive correction, clarity to what is godly. Gnosticism rose it's ugly head again.

Now to say :

"can you name any early Christian to ever challenge this “heresy” the Catholic Church promotes? ".

Well, can you name when THE EARLY CHURCH started teaching the doctrine Transubstantiuon? NO. MANY ERRORS IN THE CHURCH TOOK TIME TO ADDRESS.

The word “eucharist” means “thanksgiving” and was an early Christian way of referring to the celebration of the Lord’s Table.

Believers in the early centuries of church history regularly celebrated the Lord’s Table as a way to commemorate the death of Christ. The Lord Himself commanded this observance on the night before His death. As the apostle Paul recorded in 1 Corinthians 11:23–26:

the church fathers who you hold their writing as authoritative said :

Tertullian clarified his understanding of the Lord’s Table by noting that the bread and the cup were symbols of Christ’s body and blood. In that same vein, we find that many of the church fathers similarly clarified their understanding of the eucharist by describing it in symbolic and spiritual terms.


Justin Martyr (110–165) spoke of “the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood"(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).

Origen similarly noted, “We have a symbol of gratitude to God in the bread which we call the Eucharist” (Against Celsus, 8.57).

Athanasius (296–373) similarly contended that the elements of the Eucharist are to be understood spiritually, not physically: “[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Festal Letter, 4.19)

it would appear those of the early church fathers agreed with the word of God and Paul. Not the RCC of today

Words matter. Symbols, remembrance and commemorative do not transfer to become the blood and body of Jesus Literally.

You are in error. Take your church father's word for it if you won't take Pauls.
Part two:

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
[A]s the bread and wine of the Eucharist before the invocation of the Trinity, which is holy and worthy of adoration, were simple bread and wine, after the invocation the bread becomes the body of Christ, and the wine the blood of Christ [Catechetical Lectures 19:7 (c. A.D. 350)]. Consider therefore the bread and the wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to you, let faith establish you. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the body and blood of Christ have been vouchsafed to you. . . . Having learned these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, “And bread strengthens man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, strengthen your heart,” by partaking of it as spiritual, and “make the face of your soul to shine” [ibid., 22:6, 9].

ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN Perhaps you may be saying, “I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?” It only remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ [The Mysteries 9:50, 58 (c. A.D. 390)].

THEODORE OF MOPSUESTIA
When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, “This is the symbol of my body,” but, “This is my body.” In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, “This is the symbol of my blood,” but, “This is my blood.” For he wanted us to look upon the [eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought . . . not to see [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit [Catechetical Homilies 5:1 (c. A.D. 410)].

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO
I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s table. . . . The bread you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. The chalice, or rather, what is in the chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ
[Sermons 227 (c. A.D. 411)].

What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But your faith obliges you to accept that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction [ibid., 272].
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
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I dont believe in the Apostolic succession as presented by the RCC

Antioch Syria was the church headquarters

The RCC persecuted the "True Church" those who wouldnt baptize their children in the RCC to mention one

The inquisition, and methods of torture used by the RCC, at the directions of the Popes Bulls, the iron virgin, thumb screws, the rack, Evil!

Evil History, In The Succession Of Darkness!
So perhaps you should read Ignatius of Antioch and see what he had to say. I think you will find that 1st century Christian as Catholic as I am.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
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You have taken those quotes out of context. I’ve provided some quotes from the same authors you quoted. I’m posting a part two as well. Your belief simply isn’t in historical Christianity.

ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible [Letter to the Romans 7 (c. A.D. 110)]. Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ, which have come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh that suffered for our sins and that the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes [Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6–7 (c. A.D. 110)].

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing that is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food that has been made into the Eucharist by the eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus [First Apology 66 (c. A.D. 151)]. ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood? [Against Heresies 4:33:2 (c. A.D. 189)]. He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies. When the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh that is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him? [ibid., 5:2:2–3].

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA “Eat my flesh,” [Jesus] says, “and drink my blood.” The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children [Instructor of Children 1:6 (c. A.D. 197)].

TERTULLIAN OF CARTHAGE [T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe while it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh that actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], that the soul may be cleansed. . . . The flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul may fatten on its God [Resurrection of the Flesh 8 (c. A.D. 210)].

ST. HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME “And she has furnished her table”: That denotes the promised knowledge of the Holy Trinity; it also refers to his honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper” [fragment from On Proverbs (c. A.D. 217)].

ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA
Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way. . . . Now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: “My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink” [Jn 6:56] [Homilies on Numbers 7:2 (c. A.D. 249)].

ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, “Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and despised, [lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord [The Lapsed (Treatise 3) 15–16 (A.D. 251)].



ST. APHRAHAT THE PERSIAN SAGE
After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink [Demonstrations 12:6 (c. A.D. 340)].
wrong! good try.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
So perhaps you should read Ignatius of Antioch and see what he had to say. I think you will find that 1st century Christian as Catholic as I am.
The Bishops of Rome, Were No More In Succession Than The Bishops Any Place Else

Roman Catholicism Has A Dark Evil History

The RCC Is Outside Of The Church Established In Acts 2, Its Fruits Are Evil Against The Scripture

Perhaps You Should Read Up On The Inguisition, And Directives From The Popes Concerning The Treatment Of Heretics "Torture" Of Humans That You Fail To Face, Dominican, Franciscan Orders Used In This, Pure Evil

Perhaps You Should Read Up On The Medici And Their Succession, Pure Evil From The Pit Of Hell
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
432
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only on an RCC chat site, you did LOL. Be here, you were blown out the water LOL
That came from a book. All the sources are cited and the original sources are available online. I know it’s hard to accept there were not early Christians held your belief but it’s the truth.
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
432
60
28
The Bishops of Rome, Were No More In Succession Than The Bishops Any Place Else

Roman Catholicism Has A Dark Evil History, Outside Of The Church Established In Acts 2

Perhaps You Should Read Up On The Inguisition, And Directives From The Popes Concerning The Treatment Of Heretics

Perhaps You Should Read Up On The Medici And Their Succession

Pure Evil From The Pit Of Hell
So I take it that you don’t want to read the writings of a man in charge of the ancient church in Antioch?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
4,000
113
That came from a book. All the sources are cited and the original sources are available. I know it’s hard to accept there were not early Christians held your belief but it’s the truth.
yea so did mine right from my shelf of Church history.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
So I take it that you don’t want to read the writings of a man in charge of the ancient church in Antioch?
Roman Catholicism Has A Dark Evil History

The RCC Is Outside Of The Church Established In Acts 2, Its Fruits Are Evil Against The Scripture

Perhaps You Should Read Up On The Inguisition, And Directives From The Popes Concerning The Treatment Of Heretics "Torture" Of Humans That You Fail To Face, Dominican, Franciscan Orders Used In This, Pure Evil

Perhaps You Should Read Up On The Medici And Their Succession, Pure Evil From The Pit Of Hell