Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
3,999
113
And yet, many have translated it to mean:
Strong's Concordance
glóssa: the tongue, a language
Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Definition: the tongue, a language
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech)
.
^
This portion matters the most:
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

Love never ends.
But as for prophecies,
they will come to an end;
as for languages, they will cease;
as for knowledge, it will come to an end.


Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with.


Love will never cease. But though there are prophecies, they will be abolished. Though there are languages, they will stop. Though there is knowledge, it will be abolished.


Social affection will never fail: but as for prophecies, they shall be out of use; as for languages, they shall cease; as for knowledge, it shall vanish away.


Love will never die out. If there is inspired preaching, it will pass away. If there is speaking, it will cease. If there is knowledge, it will pass away.


Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.


Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they shall fail; whether there are languages, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it shall vanish away.


Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if there are languages, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be brought to an end.


Love never fails; if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if now exist speakings, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will soon be set aside;


Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.
Prophecy is not a language it is the gifts of the Holy Spirit which is supernatural the context is Spiritual gifts. Found in chapter 12 which is completed in chapter 14..

You just because the word "Tongues has the meaning languages also that is not the full context of the word.

As you were told 1000 times. Taking a word like " tongues" in this case that has a systematic range of meanings and we use what best fits with the context which was established in chapter 12 ending in chapter 14 of 1cor NOT at 1cor 13:8-10.

Prophecies are not various languages. It is a gift given to one BY the Holy Spirit who is speaking under the inspiration specifically as 1cor 12, 13, and 14 application of both words.

I can show you where I have and others said this to you many many times yet you keep coming back to the false narrative and bias you have.
Now how long will it before you return to the topic of Topeka and Toronto?
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
According to the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon


There are no Greek Words meaning Speaking in Tongues or Tongues as a Gift of the Holy Spirit.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
3,999
113
And yet, many have translated it to mean:
Strong's Concordance
glóssa: the tongue, a language
Original Word: γλῶσσα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: glóssa
Phonetic Spelling: (gloce-sah')
Definition: the tongue, a language
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech)
.
^
This portion matters the most:
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).

Love never ends.
But as for prophecies,
they will come to an end;
as for languages, they will cease;
as for knowledge, it will come to an end.


Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with.


Love will never cease. But though there are prophecies, they will be abolished. Though there are languages, they will stop. Though there is knowledge, it will be abolished.


Social affection will never fail: but as for prophecies, they shall be out of use; as for languages, they shall cease; as for knowledge, it shall vanish away.


Love will never die out. If there is inspired preaching, it will pass away. If there is speaking, it will cease. If there is knowledge, it will pass away.


Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.


Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they shall fail; whether there are languages, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it shall vanish away.


Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if there are languages, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be brought to an end.


Love never fails; if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if now exist speakings, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will soon be set aside;


Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will be done away with. Where there are various languages, they will cease. Where there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

again if one does not include the full and complete unit chapter of 1cor chapter 12- through 14 using a Greek translation of a Word is meaningless. The authorial intent starts in chapter 11 and goes to chapter `14 that is why they are known as unit chapters . Surely you realize chapters in the bible were added and the context of the writer doesn't alwAYS END WITH THE Chapter.

Paul did not write his letters originally with chapters. Context can and does move through the chapters as it does here with 1cor 12 through 14.

the authorial intent was to not have one ignorant of Spiritual gifts 1cor 12:1
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,458
460
83
A structure is only as solid as its foundation. In this short study into Pentecostalism's origins we'll discover whether it's built on solid rock or sinking sand.

Charles Fox Parham, Pentecostalism's acknowledged founder, spent the summer of 1900 at Frank W. Sanford's Holiness commune in Shiloh, Maine. While there, he learned of the Holiness doctrine of an approaching "latter rain," that is, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit which would fall on people as it had in the church's early day. This would be a sign of Christ's imminent return. What scriptural basis is there for the latter rain doctrine? James says: "Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains."—James 5:7 This is the only verse from which a case might be made for a latter rain. So we must understand clearly what this verse actually says. Is James instructing his readers to be patient for the latter rain or for Christ's return. He's clearly encouraging them be patient for the Lord's return using an agricultural metaphor to make his point. There are no other New Testament scriptures from which we can put together a "latter rain" doctrine; it simply isn't taught. In fact, rather than worldwide revival, the scriptures clearly reveal the world will descend into darkness before the Lord's return.

While at Shiloh, Sanford filled Parham's head with tales of foreign missionaries who had spontaneously begun speaking the language of their foreign hosts without ever learning the language. In other words, they could preach to them in their own languages using the gift of tongues. But what evidence is there of this ever really happening? None that I'm aware of. But Parham was fascinated; he was convinced that this was a sure sign of the end-time and Christ's imminent return.

Returning to Topeka, Kansas, Parham established a missionary training center. In December of 1900, he challenged his students to find evidence of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit like what happened in Acts 2. He also suggested that the surest evidence of this would be speaking in tongues. At their New Year's eve service, 1901, right on schedule, Agnes Ozman asked Parham to lay hands on her head and pray she would receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Ozman began singing in an unknown language, which someone identified as Chinese.

What's strange about this picture? First of all, there's no evidence from the New Testament that missionaries ever used the gift of tongues to preach the good news. When missionaries did eventually go to foreign countries after the "latter rains" started falling, they failed miserably. Secondly, notice that Parham gave his students a suggestion which they pondered for a month. This wasn't a spontaneous outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Parham orchestrated the whole thing.

So, the question I leave you with is this: If the tree is bad, how can the fruit possibly be good?
Pentecostalism was founded in the Book of Acts Chapter 2. Men who attempted to rediscover the truths in the book of Acts after the dark ages of Catholicism and the incomplete work of the reformation are not the standard. Their inperfections and lack of understanding does not negate the fact that they rediscovered some actual truths in their efforts. It did not take long for people to correct the mistaken idea that tongues were for evangelizing foreign nations while still understanding that they did have a valid purpose in the church.

Today we can exegete the scriptures and with scholarly authors such as Gordon Fee, William and Robert Menzies, Roger Stronsdat, Craig Keener and others discover that continuationist theology and Pentecostalism is a superiour hermeneutic to ceasationsim.

And the sullied past of particular characters in the Pentecostal movement does not change that. Your premise is erroneous in that you you are thinking that Pentecostals have not founded their doctrine on scripture alone. Most Pentecostals you meet today (better known as Spirit Filled) read the book of Acts after they got saved and as they did the Holy Spirit put within them an expectation of faith that they could experience the same things they read about the early church experiencing and they asked for it and received it.

Most of these will tell you that they never heard of Azusa street, Parham, Seymour or others until later. Calvin, Luther, Augustine, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards all had something that you would find to be a mistaken understanding because we all know in part until that which is perfect is come which is when we are resurrected and see him face to face. Parham's ignorance or scandals in ministry does not cast a shadow on the book of Acts.

So after pointing out all the errors you can find in something someone said or wrote throughout the 1900s early American Pentecostal movement discussion is over you still have to look at the scriptures and ask the question "Can I have the same experience and operate in the same Holy Spirit Gifts that were given to the 1st century church today?" And you might also ask the question that they were asking in the Topeka and Houston Bible college, "What is the common sign or evidence of those that were baptized in the Holy Spirit" and you will still find that the answer is speaking in tongues. Asking and receiving the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit for Power to be a witness and the gift of tongues and then going out and doing the work of the ministry like never before, changing your community and the world will be the answer, and you will no longer be interested in the the merely academic argument as to whether it is possible or not.

I would that all God's people were prophets and that he would pour out His Spirit upon them all....
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
again if one does not include the full and complete unit chapter of 1cor chapter 12- through 14 using a Greek translation of a Word is meaningless. The authorial intent starts in chapter 11 and goes to chapter `14 that is why they are known as unit chapters . Surely you realize chapters in the bible were added and the context of the writer doesn't alwAYS END WITH THE Chapter.

Paul did not write his letters originally with chapters. Context can and does move through the chapters as it does here with 1cor 12 through 14.

the authorial intent was to not have one ignorant of Spiritual gifts 1cor 12:1


I am half Sephardim Jew, the Hebrew Scrolls were written in Tagin, which is a calligraphic style others would see as a run on of words reading right to left.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
3,999
113
According to the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon


There are no Greek Words meaning Speaking in Tongues or Tongues as a Gift of the Holy Spirit.

I disagree and the Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University and dean is not an authority on the word of God.


The early church father which again was listed many times before made it clear about the empowering of the Holy Spirit and utterances, I have listed many of them. From

Irenaeus, theologian of the Holy Spirit,

"The Spirit continues Christ's work in the church, which is itself a gift from the Spirit "



Tertullian,

Tertullian (ca. 160–255 AD), one of the great defenders of orthodox Christianity, addressed his baptismal candidates to expect the gifts. He would proclaim, “When you come up from the most sacred bath of the new birth, when you spread out your hands … ask your Father, ask your Lord, for the special gift of his inheritance, the distribution of the charisms.”


"the very same Spirit who raised Christ from the dead and will also raise our deceased bodies"

and on and on it goes down through the church ages all of them.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
3,999
113
I am half Sephardim Jew, the Hebrew Scrolls were written in Tagin, which is a calligraphic style others would see as a run-on of words reading right to left.

Your point is not well-founded. the authorial intent is seen from the art and Science of Proper biblical interpretation known as hermeneutics. the tranlation of Both Old and New testaments has been well established and presented to where the Jew, the Hebrew Scrolls can be read in an appropriate Canonized Bible and receive clearly the intent of the author.

Your point is not well-founded after the fact 1cor chapters `12 through 14 have already been established. Are you suggesting one change that which is given already?
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
Your point is not well-founded. the authorial intent is seen from the art and Science of Proper biblical interpretation known as hermeneutics. the tranlation of Both Old and New testaments has been well established and presented to where the Jew, the Hebrew Scrolls can be read in an appropriate Canonized Bible and receive clearly the intent of the author.

Your point is not well-founded after the fact 1cor chapters `12 through 14 have already been established. Are you suggesting one change that which is given already?
And yet, on display are the 4 column scrolls in Jerusalem written in Tagin.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
3,999
113
And yet, on display are the 4 column scrolls in Jerusalem written in Tagin.
that is a smokescreen I say that respectfully. as you know we have over 56 000 manuscripts and no originals, yet

the Holy Spirit, Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of the Living God is clearly seen in the writings and the empowerment also by the Spirit of the Lord, I have not heard anyone have an issue with the translation of the Holy Spirt and HIS works in the Old Testament Yet are you taking issue with the new?
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
that is a smokescreen I say that respectfully. as you know we have over 56 000 manuscripts and no originals, yet

the Holy Spirit, Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of the Living God is clearly seen in the writings and the empowerment also by the Spirit of the Lord, I have not heard anyone have an issue with the translation of the Holy Spirt and HIS works in the Old Testament Yet are you taking issue with the new?

That is Isaiah by the way.
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
Every Generation has produced [sofers], scribe to the English, and they have hand copied from the original to the modern version. And still to this very day, sofers are hand copying each Tanakh Scroll.
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
the Holy Spirit, Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of the Living God is clearly seen in the writings and the empowerment also by the Spirit of the Lord, I have not heard anyone have an issue with the translation of the Holy Spirt and HIS works in the Old Testament Yet are you taking issue with the new?
How am I having issue with it?
I might have issue that someone decided to call it differently than what they have been called for Centuries, but that would be it. It's the usage of man made terms like Contemporary, Typology, Soteriology, Christology, Etymology, Eschatology, Ecclesiology, etc. It's a joke and gives me a good laugh.
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
Nowhere did God ever tell man to put the Bible into categories and give it uninspired names. If God wanted it for His Word, He would have had the Disciple do it.
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
83
Instead, we have the supposed learned looking more uneducated by using a conglomeration of unnecessary and non Holy Spirit Inspired categories.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,170
3,999
113
How am I having issue with it?
I might have issue that someone decided to call it differently than what they have been called for Centuries, but that would be it. It's the usage of man made terms like Contemporary, Typology, Soteriology, Christology, Etymology, Eschatology, Ecclesiology, etc. It's a joke and gives me a good laugh.
I am asking? Your point is not well founded
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,680
705
113
what are you trying to have me help you attack the RCC now? I don't care about a person claiming they have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues and at the same time thwy is proclaiming the RCC doctrines?

FYI the RCC doctrine is wrong in the context of that doctrine example would be the error of the doctrine Transubstantiation.

FYI there are cathloics who are saved and speak in tongues as I was one.
Where Angela said she stops beliving in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
This was the mainpoint of my post.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,778
2,934
113
This is very sad when a person says such a thing but really doesn't understand what they are saying. Here is the example:


" I stopped believing in tongues 25 years ago, because of what I saw in churches and nonsense like the so-called "Toronto Blessing!"

You stopped believing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit because you saw those who used the Gifts of the Holy Spirit wrongly?

Very profound statement by one who is so educated and well versed in FAITH?

I guess I should just stop listening to any pastor in a church I Attend because of the error of the ones I saw on TV, huh?



Look at this one:


"I did a large paper on the Holy Spirit last semester, which confirmed my reliance upon the Holy Spirit is the right direction to go. But, too much emotional exhibitionalism going on in so many churches, instead of the real leading of God."


Now we are to throw away our Biblical experience because we have a Resume and School paper on the Holy Spirit that confirms your own bias? And you solely now are the Authtcator and chief of the Holy Spirit.

This is pride and just a clear indication that

1. you have not proven the biblical question I have asked those who say tongues have ceased and using 1cor 13:8-10 as the foundational text as you all do, to show me.

Not of you have. why?

2. because 1cor chapter 12 through 14 is the full context of the gifts of the Holy Spirt which you cannot use three verses in the middle chapter of the three to establish a bias that will stand. If you cannot using all three chapters provided the understanding of 1cor 13:8-10 IN 12 or 14 it is not there.

That which is perfect is not the canonization of the Bible. YOU educated types added that in. AND THINK we just say ok because you wrote and paper?


Then when you are called on it you scream YOUR Being mean !!! But as I have said before and have many times recorded many of those here who have said in man other threads about Pentacostels which I have many times posted before to those who have said the following

1 those are using pagan practices
2. it is Hindu chatter
3. the devil gave you the gift
4. used secular information to discredit the supernatural work of the Holy Spirt such as linguist, occult, buffoons on TV, Your own bad experience.


None of that has or does remove the work and gift of the Holy Spirit seen in the holy and New Testament. it has been shown proven AND GREAT EXAMPLES PROVIDED ANS WHEN WE HAVE THOSE HERE HAVE SAID :


send us videos, give me proof, speak in tongues, and videotape yourself. Why? Because you have a bais.
Do you read English at all? The post you quoted, I said I ONLY did not believe in tongues. I most certainly do believe in many gifts of the Spirit, the ones that Pentecostals never talk about. That is why I put some lists up, straight from the Bible, of what God says are the gifts. And the gifts that lasted to our day, are very important. Everyone needs gifts of the Holy Spirit. I told you my husband has the gift of helps, I have the gift of teaching, and a few other things.

I even asked people to write down their gift, except for tongues. I just can't believe a 1900 year gap in tongues was orchestrated by God, esp. when it is mostly garble and nonsense, and doesn't make sense linguistically. It is just babble. I do believe in the truth. A man I knew who converted from Hindi, became a great evangelist. He was preaching at a meeting, and he said 4 words out loud, in the middle of his preaching. He had no idea why it happened. At the end of the meeting, a man ran up from the back, with a napkin in his hand -he asked my friend what languages he spoke. He said Hindi and English. The man asked him how he could speak perfect Armenian (the country, not the doctrine!). The name said in Armenian, "Jesus Christ is Lord!" So, my friend told him the gospel, and he was saved. His wife and son came to the front, and they also believed and received. Every time the evangelist went back to that town, the man would invite him to his house, with more and more family and friends, who also got saved. 27 people in all! Now, that is real speaking in tongues. And the interpreting spoke the actual language it was said in. That's not noisy babbling, that is speaking 4 words in a real language and getting saved. I have heard missionaries on the field sometimes experience this, even Baptist ones. So, I never discount REAL tongues - speaking in a real language to communicate the gospel, and many people get saved. But, not the stuff and nonsense that goes on in charismatic/Pentecostal churches. That is cacophony!

I don't have a bias - I have the truth of the Bible. I watched 15 years in charismatic and pentecostal churches that got farther and farther away from the Biblical way to change - which is to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, as the Holy Spirit leads us. (See also 2 Cor. 3:18)

"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12:2

And right after these instructions, Paul gives a gift list! It is instructive to realize Paul is no longer adding tongues, which I believe died out in the early church, as the message of the gospel was more important than signs and wonders.

"We have different gifts,according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully." Romans 12:6-8

My gift from the Holy Spirit is teaching. I also have the gift of encouragement, which I use all the time in RL and on the internet.

So, no more nonsense about not believing in the gifts. I just don't believe in speaking in tongues and interpretation, done as they are in Word Faith, Bethel, charismatic and pentecostal churches.

I have never said tongues are from the devil, or that it is Hindu chatter or pagan. You are using sweeping generalizations to attack people. I am respectful to beliefs, and my goal is to show people the truth of the Bible, not win a stupid argument. You don't seem to remember what people write. You construct these straw men, then knock them down, and say, "I won!" Sorry, you don't even know what I believe from what you have said here, nor do you know the Bible as well as me, not because I am bragging, but because of all the times I read it, and studied it in seminary.

Really, my concern about tongues, is that this wrong doctrine has taken over Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches, to say nothing of Word of Faith doctrine, which I do think comes from the devil, like Jesus going to hell, and we being "little gods." Talk about terrible doctrine! People are looking for crazy experiences and claim, "That was God!" Nope, it is not. God is not contained within his gifts, he is the giver of gifts. After 15 horrible years in Pentecostal Churches I left, and I found churches that preach what I am reading in my Bible - every day, all the verses. Not just Acts 2 and a small passage in 1 Cor. 12 that Paul wrote for correction.

The way to Christian maturity that I was taught when I went to Pentecostal churches, was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Get your second blessing and the future will be perfect! But the Biblical way is that we are sanctified in association with the Holy Spirit. It is progressive, and we need to be renewing our minds on the Word of God. All of it.

If tongues was a small part of charismatic churches, and the sermons, songs were teaching the whole Bible, I probably would not even care about this discussion. But, people keep posting that tongues is this, that or the other thing. It is an obsession. Proof that you do walk with Christ. But, people who truly walk with God need no proof. I have been walking with Christ since he saved me in May, 1980, and reading my Bible daily. To say nothing of studying the whole Bible, and theology.

Tongues as they exist today are off the mark. I urge everyone to start reading the whole Bible, daily. Start with 3 chapters of the OT, and 1 of the NT. I also read a Psalm daily, & in German and Koine Greek. That is how to grow! God speaks to us in the written word in this day and age.

Stop telling me I am a liar, and stop lying about me, who you know nothing about. I can only pray that some people will take my challenge and start reading the Bible daily, for the rest of their lives!! If they don't give up tongues, that is their business. But I sure hope they stumble upon sanctification, and learn it is both something God leads us in, and we walk with God in obedience.