Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

I continue to quote it from John 14:1-3 and you continue to reject it! You're like little kids putting their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes while loudly saying "la, la, la, la ...." in order to block out the truth.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 combined with 1 Corinthians 15 states that dead will be raised immortal and glorified, with the living being transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The promise in John 14:1-3 has the Lord going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and the promise to come back to get us to take us there, i.e. to take us to those places in the Father's house. Then you have Paul supporting this by the following scripture:

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body."

By the way, the last part of the scripture above is what is stated in 1 Cor.15 when the the bodies of the dead and living in Christ are transformed immortal and glorified.

The day that Paul is talking about is not the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. But is what follows, which is "The Day of the Lord" which is the time of God's wrath. Paul was saying that the proof that "The Day of the Lord" had already come is when the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

There is no challenge here:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"

1 Thessalonians 4:16 states that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven," which supported by the fact that in John 14:1-3 He said that He would come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house.

There are two elements there:

* The coming of our Lord Jesus

* Our being gathered to Him

When you read this, you must always keep in mind that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. No matter which way you slice it, by having the church gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God.

That last seven years of wrath are specific to God fulfilling that last seven years of the decree that was given to Israel and the pouring out His wrath on a wicked Christ rejecting world and not for those who have already believed in His Son. People try to cushion this by saying that God protects the church during the time of His wrath. Those who claim this have no idea of the severity and magnitude of said wrath, else they would not make that claim.

You still have not responded to the fact that Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14 shows the church/bride following the Lord out of heaven.

By your belief and teaching, you and others cannot be looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but for the completion of God's wrath first. Where we on the other hand, are looking for the imminent return of the Lord i.e. prior to God's wrath. If I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a road map, knowing that Jesus cannot return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.

It is sad that you do not honor the Lord by recognizing that He satisfied God's wrath on our behalf and thereby teach that we go through it.

If you are saying the rapture is around the mid trib period I agree. The tribulation and then wrath great tribulation in between those two the first rapture.

amillennialism is a ridiculous belief in that it ignores a literal thousand years which is stated six times in Revelation 20:1-7. You and others are just choosing to not believe what you are reading. Because if you take the scripture at face value, you cannot say that it does not say "a thousand years." You've bought into that false teaching that was started about the thousand years not being a literal thousand years. When it is mentioned over and over you should take note.

Daniel 2 describes the literal millennial kingdom as that Rock/Jesus that was cut out of the mountain without human hands, who falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor. And the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of all human government. Then that Rock becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, i.e. Christ's reign during the millennial kingdom.

Book of Revelation is a symbolic book...
If you take all of it literally, you will have nightmares.

"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." - Rom.5:9

Click to expand...

The verses Rom 5:9, 1 Thes 1:10, and 1 Thes 5:9 do not explicitly demonstrate a rapturous deliverance from suffering God's wrath. Here's why:

Case 1) Deliverance does not mean that one necessarily completely avoids suffering that thing, only that the end result is to be taken away from it (example Romans 7).

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" - Romans 7:24 KJV

Case 2) Deliverance that also includes an avoidance of suffering does not necessarily mean one completely avoids being in the presence of that thing, only that they do not experience the ill effects (example: Daniel 3)

" If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. [...] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." - Daniel 3:17&25 KJV

1 Thessalonians presents an interesting dilemma. Was the message for the church of the Thessalonians (1 Thes 1:1) specifically or directed to Christians generally? If specifically to the church, case 1) of deliverance is true. If to Christians in general, case 2) of the deliverance is true. In either case, rapturous escape is not a necessary conclusion.

There are 4 ways to be delivered from suffering wrath:

1) Moved to a safe location (e.g. Noah's ark)
2) Be unaffected by suffering (e.g. the furnace in Daniel)
3) Sleep of death prior to wrath
4) Rapture into the sky

(Importantly, a deliverance of many people might utilize a mix of all four)

I am not familiar with this reference.

There are examples where God's wrath is applied to both righteous and wicked indiscriminately.

"And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked." - Ezekiel 21:3 KJV

It's actually a common misconception that God does not afflict punishment and injury on the righteous. Job is another example of a righteous man that faced many hardships there he considered to be punishments. There are specific instances including Sodom and Gomorrah where the righteous were completely spared, but that is not always the case.

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." - Rev 17:14 KJV

Two interpretations. Either it is a physical return of Christ, or it is the emergence of the body of Christ through the people on earth (a metaphor that diametrically opposes the figure of the Whore of Babylon as a metaphor for nations of people). Even if we look at the physical return of Christ, where is it indicated that called, chosen, and faithful are coming from heaven?

Even if these individuals were from heaven, did they appear there by means of a live bodily rapture? Or did they die and eventually ascend to heaven in events unrelated to the Day of the Lord?

"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [...] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." - Rev 19:6-8&14 KJV

1) What indicates that the wedding feast takes place in heaven?
2) What indicates that heaven's armies are men rather than angels?
3) If heaven's army is composed of men, what indicates these men originated from a live/fleshly rapture on the Day of the Lord?

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" - Titus 2:13 KJV

Why would being subject to suffering wrath negate a blessed hope? Especially when Rev 20 shows that in part of the purification process of the saved that sadness and grief fade away? The end result is good even if troubled times exist between the start and finish.

This comes back to the 4 ways to be delivered from suffering wrath (and the question about the intended audience of 1 Thes 5:9).

First, we must look at what is most consistent with scripture. Is pre-trib fleshly rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Is post-trib fleshly rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Is no-fleshly-rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Can multiple disagreeing perspectives all be consistent with scripture? Yes.

Once we have determined what is consistent (logos) we then can assess which interpretation we personally find to be the most compelling (pathos/ethos). We may be superimposed over two or more opposing ideas, or may settle on one answer very quickly.

Voicing a preferred interpretation doesn't add words to the prophesies. But claiming that scripture definitively and explicitly agrees with your perspective (when it doesn't do so) might constitute adding to the prophesy. I think pre-trib rapture is a fine interpretation, but I have not seen any evidence that it is explicitly demonstrated in the texts to the exclusion of the opposing perspectives.

Baby Christians yea, lies of secret rapture and reading book of Revelation literally.

Revelation 2:4-5
New King James Version

4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

The top verse led me to pray to God to understand what love was. Than a pastor from a church changed his sermon to describe agape love to me. After that I read bible verses that God led me to.

Than again God used my fear when I was a baby Christian to pray to him for understanding and he led me to understand most of the end of times prophecies by causing events to happen.

https://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

we have not been subjected to Wrath

The only thing is God's elects either jailed or killed=go to Heaven. Don't know what is there to be afraid of trib period...
God is Sovereign=all things are under His control.
https://testallthings.com/category/eschatology/

the taking of the bride is what Jesus said HE would do read John chapter 14. the taking of the church was described By Jesus as the Bride Groom coming to get His bride. The Account Paul gave in 1Thess chapter 4:13-18 and the John 14 chapter is greatly in line with the Jewish tradition of marriage where the bride Groom goes to his Fathers house and prepares space for HIS bride. When it is time the father tells HIS son, Go get your bride. The Rapture is Christ coming for HIS Bride. Now if you think you have to suffer as the bride of Christ as the wrath of God is poured out on the earth please be my guest, I am not subject to that wrath in fact, there is no guarantee I will be physically alive when the Rapture happens SO I am ready today right now. I am not looking for the anti-christ I am looking for the Lord Jesus Christ.

nope, I am a Bride of Christ I am not needing to suffer to prove my love for God He took that now I will have troubles as we all do but I will not see the great tribulation. You want to be here for please do.

Have you experienced the family persecution that mostly happens on holidays and a bunch of nonelect pastors trying to make you compromise your faith? Picture of pharisees and sadducees argue with Jesus.

I fight off self-pity by thanking God that he chose me as one of his elect and God will give me the grace to endure persecution.

All of you are so confident you have it figured out. We are right before the endtimes tribulation period right now. As the awatakee guy said, after the prophecies then Jesus comes onto earth to reign 1000 years. Corona is the beginning.

You guys that say there is no rapture do not realize that God Himself has directly gave revelation through visions and dreams there is a rapture and it happens before the wrath period. Harpazo in the Bible is 100% a rapture. In fact He showed them there is multiple raptures for multiple harvests. It is Where in the Bible Jesus says those servants who are on the 2nd and third watch will be blessed. The barley, wheat and grape are the harvests. The 144k and Bride is raptured prewrath. Don’t know which harvests each are specific. The wedding guests are raptured after the wrath starts. The grape harvest is those martyred.

The book of Revelation is literal and symbolic at the same time. In the Bible one prophecy can happen multiple times and in different ways to fulfill the same details.

You guys don’t believe God when he said he would prophecy to people through dreams/visions? If not then that is no different than those who didn’t believe Bible prophets cayse they were shown through dreams amd visions and direct words from God.

God showed most all specific events that will happen to people. That Russia will invade America who is Babylon the great abd destroy America in 1 hour by nuclear weapons. That a microchip will be instituted as the mark if beast. Cryptocurrencies is the precursor to all currency being digital on a network tracked through who has the mark. They are using corona and mask wearing as precursor of getting the works used to being controlled. God has shown on and on events. How CERN will be used to open the bottomless pit hell spirit dimension into this realm. Why you think CERN has the god of destruction Shiva dancing in front of a portal in their front yard for all to see? Can go on amd on what God has revealed to the elect through dreams/visions. No different than prophets of old. God says In Bible He always reveals to prophets.

Are we in the last days? Yes we are. Not the tribulation period yet but still the last days birth pangs. And as it says God has given many around the world dreams/visions of what will happen in detail.

Acts 2:17
’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams

Do you know how to test if someone is a false prophet?

*Cant debate substance.

*Demonize opponent

*Repeat

All the apostles but john were martyred by the devil.
They DID NOT go through Gods wrath ....AT ALL.
Tortured and killed
Learn the difference.

The reason they go there is not only to protect a poorly thought out doctrine , but mis understand the purpose of the trib.

No clue as to purpose.

The entire deal begins in abstract.

Then confusion. Imagine that many verses reframed. Result would be confusion every time.

Yes
Harvest is 4 parts
Firstfruit
Main
Corners
Gleaners.

But in rev 14 we see a rapture that is neither the main harvest( gentile bride) nor the second coming.
That harvest is jews
Firstfruits 144k
Then, Main jewish harvest.

The first miracle of Jesus had to be at a wedding.
The declaration "......but you saved the best WINE for last"
The grape harvest is last.( the Jews).
Note it is a section of them,....and they come to the feast in heaven, through Jesus.

God does NOT choose who will believe, which is basically what you are insinuating. But please quote a verse that teaches this, if you think there is.

It IS God's choice to save "those who believe". That's God criteria for who to save.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Do you think God would choose what doesn't please Him? Of course not.